Secularism is poison

[satay]

I think secularism is a slow poison that is going to kill our generations to come. It is going to destroy our culture, our way of life and our way of worshipping Bhagwan. But I don't believe Hindutva the way it is being portrayed by some organizations is the answer! Their 'militant' way is only going to leave our young generations scared and think of them as some sort of gundas. A gentler more friendly approach has to be adopted.

satay

[Eternal Law]

What do you think of RSS? Is it militant?

[satay]

What do you think of RSS? Is it militant?

I think the focus should be on parchar of dharma and not to worry about silly issues like valentine's day or such things.

Don't you agree? While the shiv sena make themselves look like gundas and loose all support of the younger generation...the malecchas are laughing at this all the while buying more converts into their cults.

satay

[Eternal Law]

Yes i agree but there is very big difference between RSS and Shivsena mentality.

The RSS and the VHP are well-oiled think-tanks, and they have a sophisticated, well-organized machinery reaching right down to the village level and that's what Hindus need today. They are the biggest resistance to Christian aggression in India. Afterall, RSS is biggest organization of it's kind anywhere in this world and now have organizations in many countries which are working under it's recognisation.

[devisarada]

Namaste Satay,

I agree that secularism is an insidious destroyer of culture. I cannot speak for India, having never been there, but here in Canada, where our population is so diverse, especially in the big cities, it appears to be the only acceptable compromise. (Although not one I am comfortable with)

Do you propose that India become a Hindu country, just as Israel is an Jewish country, and Pakistan is a Muslim country? It might work, considering the broad scope of Hinduism and the innate open mindedeness and tolerance for many different points of view.

I believe there is nothing wrong with Christians joining in Diwali celebrations, Hindus in Christmas services, or in everyone celebrating Eid and Hanukkah.

Perhaps my ideas are naive and Utopian. but I believe inclusion is the only way to go. We should all practice our own religion, but be open to sharing our celebrations with everyone who wishes to do so. As far as I can see, Hindus already do that.

Christians, on the other hand, will only welcome you if they see you as a potential convert, otherwise, you are excluded.

Many Muslims also seem to feel that by including non-believers, they are somehow defiling their sacred practices.

Exclusion, in this global village of ours, can only lead to greater distrust and animosity. The secular approach of not having any public celebrations (unless, of course there is money to be made) will, in my view eventually turn us all into amoral automatons.

"Tat twam asi" as far as I know, has no exceptions or conditions.

The old British doctrine of "Divide and Conquer" has been so assimilated that it will probably take centuries (if we even have that much time) to have a truly inclusive but diverse global society.

[Namo Narayana]

Yes i agree but there is very big difference between RSS and Shivsena mentality.

The RSS and the VHP are well-oiled think-tanks, and they have a sophisticated, well-organized machinery reaching right down to the village level and that's what Hindus need today. They are the biggest resistance to Christian aggression in India. Afterall, RSS is biggest organization of it's kind anywhere in this world and now have organizations in many countries which are working under it's recognisation.

Quite true. RSS and VHP are no joke. they are very organised and very professional. Shiva sena started with attacking gujaratis in maharashtra. it didnt work and they started attacking south indians in maharashtra but still dint work. i wont give them a thumbs up. it will be shabby to compare them with RSS.

But RSS has not penetrated well in south india. that needs to be done to be more effective. they have to find pockets of support to start with and take visibility in hindu procession. they did a fine job in sankaracharya matter.

[satay]

namaste devi,
Thank you for the post.
Why is it that your posts make me 'think'? It reminds me of one of OSHO's books, in it, someone asks OSHO something along the same lines and he answers, "My answers are like hammers...I will hammer your every thought until you become thoughtless!" or something along those lines....

You devi, are you trying to make me thoughtless?

Namaste Satay,

I agree that secularism is an insidious destroyer of culture. I cannot speak for India, having never been there, but here in Canada, where our population is so diverse, especially in the big cities, it appears to be the only acceptable compromise. (Although not one I am comfortable with)

I live in canada and I see what you are saying. I love it that it is a 'melting pot' but at the same time, I feel sometimes that the 'it is my canada' kind of thinking is lacking here. Normally, I see that most people remain in their groups and don't identify themselves as 'canadians' first. Don't you feel the same?

Do you propose that India become a Hindu country, just as Israel is an Jewish country, and Pakistan is a Muslim country?

No! To the contrary, India has 'always' been a country that has been a good host to all religions. From the jews to the buddhists India has been and will remain home to all religions of the world. That is part of India and I certainly don't want to see it changed! What to say of this nation that has a Sikh Prime Minister (backed by an Italian christian!), a Muslim President and hindus in the opposition party?

What I want and most Indians want is a stop to the discrimination of hindus and hinduism in the country. The country that identifies itself as "Hindustan" shows nothing but discrimination for its majority. Yes, Hindus have always been good host to minorities and other religions but how are we being paid back? Not with some gratitude which is well deserved and earned but with more discrimination and more propaganda by those who are ready to please some minorities.

Hindus in general have become cowards and pacifists in every sense of the word. This is a 'gift' we inherited from our rulers and our buddhist friends. It is very evident here in the west where hindus in general shy away from all religious matters when it comes to public image. The new generation has been fed this propaganda that hinduism is old and useless, that we are nothing but a bunch of idol worshippers.

I don't understand why we have to put up with the aggression of any religion doesn't matter which piece of land we are talking about on the world map.

I believe there is nothing wrong with Christians joining in Diwali celebrations, Hindus in Christmas services, or in everyone celebrating Eid and Hanukkah.

That's another thing we have in common then! As you may know, my wife is a christian and we celebrate holidays of both religions!

Perhaps my ideas are naive and Utopian. but I believe inclusion is the only way to go. We should all practice our own religion, but be open to sharing our celebrations with everyone who wishes to do so. As far as I can see, Hindus already do that.

That is spoken like a true Hindu. Inclusion, yes, Sanatana Dharma is the only one that answers this call of 'inclusion'.

Christians, on the other hand, will only welcome you if they see you as a potential convert, otherwise, you are excluded.

Many Muslims also seem to feel that by including non-believers, they are somehow defiling their sacred practices.

They have their concepts as we do ours. I just wish that they adopt the "live and let live" mantra of life which is needed right now in this little world of ours, otherwise, it is going to be good for our children.

Exclusion, in this global village of ours, can only lead to greater distrust and animosity. The secular approach of not having any public celebrations (unless, of course there is money to be made) will, in my view eventually turn us all into amoral automatons.

"Tat twam asi" as far as I know, has no exceptions or conditions.

The old British doctrine of "Divide and Conquer" has been so assimilated that it will probably take centuries (if we even have that much time) to have a truly inclusive but diverse global society.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

satay

[devisarada]

Namaste Satay,

I live in canada and I see what you are saying. I love it that it is a 'melting pot' but at the same time, I feel sometimes that the 'it is my canada' kind of thinking is lacking here. Normally, I see that most people remain in their groups and don't identify themselves as 'canadians' first. Don't you feel the same?

I believe that it is the US of A that is called a melting pot. We in Canada call our society a "Cultural Mosaic" I have even heard it being referred to as a "Crazy Quilt" This demonstrates that most Canadians do remain in their own groups and do not venture outside of them. Which is a damned (am I allowed to use that word?) shame. I live in Toronto where there is such a beautiful rainbow of people. I lived 3 hours drive away from the city for about 10 months in a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) community. Externally, I fit in really well amongst all of those blue-eyed pale faces. What surprised me was their smug, holier than thou attitude, and their condescending approach to minorities. I was amazed at the relief and joy I felt, when after 10 months, I came back to the city and saw all these wonderful diverse people. So yes, I see Ukrainians sticking with Ukrainians, Italians with Italians, English with English, Scotts with Scotts, etc. However, I do have a sense that the younger generation might be starting to change some of that. We are seeing quite a few inter-racial/religious marriages in our own extended family, including mine, of course.

What I want and most Indians want is a stop to the discrimination of hindus and hinduism in the country.

Then Hindus in India and elswhere should stop this so-called political correctness and develop some backbone. (I hope that I am not sounding glib, but aren't Hindus the majority in India?)

Hindus in general have become cowards and pacifists in every sense of the word. This is a 'gift' we inherited from our rulers and our buddhist friends. It is very evident here in the west where hindus in general shy away from all religious matters when it comes to public image.

There are many Hindus here in the West who seem to be ashamed of their religion. My husband, for example, did not light diyas outside on Diwali, because he did not want the neighbours to know we are Hindu. (I eventually convinced him otherwise.)

The new generation has been fed this propaganda that hinduism is old and useless, that we are nothing but a bunch of idol worshippers.

I see this in our own extended family. It's difficult to get the young ones involved, they seem to be embarrassed by the "foreignness" of our culture. But they will eventually see that trying to "blend in" is futile. That, at least has been my experience. But then, I have never shyed away from telling people where I come from and who I am. I quite often wear a sari or a shalwar kameez when I'm out shopping. It get's people thinking! And I haven't heard a negative comment yet!

I don't understand why we have to put up with the aggression of any religion doesn't matter which piece of land we are talking about on the world map.

We shouldn't have to. Laws that have teeth should be implemented and enforced to severely curtail proselytizing. I also believe that a robust campaign to re-instill the pride in their heritage is needed for all Hindus both in India and the Diaspora. Hindus are more self-effacing than Canadians, if that's possible! We need to get away from this engrained colonialism, and stop turning to step-mother Britannia for validation. We must remember that Hindu civilization was far more advanced than any others. The Egyptians were not yet even dreaming about the pyramids when the Vedas were first handed down.

That's another thing we have in common then! As you may know, my wife is a christian and we celebrate holidays of both religions!

So do my husband and I. His father was Hindu, and his mother was brought up as a Catholic/Hindu (does this happen only in the West Indies?) And although I am now Hindu, I have such fond memories of celebrations in my childhood, that I would not give them up.

That is spoken like a true Hindu. Inclusion, yes, Sanatana Dharma is the only one that answers this call of 'inclusion'.

That is one of the main reasons that I became a Hindu.

They have their concepts as we do ours. I just wish that they adopt the "live and let live" mantra of life which is needed right now in this little world of ours, otherwise, it is going to be good for our children.

But then, they would have to put their own house in order first. Would you believe that I once overheard a fundamentalist Christian couple saying about a Catholic priest: "Is he a Christian?" "No, he's Catholic!"

To sum it all up, Satay, I believe that this global village is in great danger.
We as Hindus, if we stopped apologizing for our existence, and instead, took pride in our heritage, and led by firm example, could become the role models that other nations would envy. (Only someone with a Germanic grammatical background, can come up with a sentence so full of subordinate clauses! )

In the words of Swami Vivekananda "...if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart..."

Well, it seems my verbosity has gotten the better of me once again. I'd better stop here.... for now.

[Sudarshan]

I think secularism is a slow poison that is going to kill our generations to come. It is going to destroy our culture, our way of life and our way of worshipping Bhagwan. But I don't believe Hindutva the way it is being portrayed by some organizations is the answer! Their 'militant' way is only going to leave our young generations scared and think of them as some sort of gundas. A gentler more friendly approach has to be adopted.

satay

To be honest, both "pseudo secular" Hindus and "non secular" Christians and Muslims have been a big boon to the world. Without them, there is very little entertainment for the rest of the world. Just imagine a world without any fighting, any abusing , no media news etc. The world is a colorful place now, thanks to these people.

[Gill Harley]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this discussion board. I'm a 50-year-old woman who lives in the UK and I have been doing my best to follow the spiritual path, in one form or another, ever since my 20s.

Where I'm at now is in following the 'sanathana dharma' as laid down in the Vedas. This predates Hinduism or any other religion. In fact, I believe it's where most of the major religions spring from, although in a very much watered down and, in some cases, corrupted form.

To me, the sanathana dharma is a universal path that doesn't call for anyone to change their religion. Being brought up in the West, I was originally a Christian, and now that I know where the religion came from, I can enjoy passages from the Bible because I can see the root of the stories. i can equally enjoy the Bhagavad Gita...

The story of Adam and Eve, for example, imho, is just a watered down version, and altered to fit the local circumstances, of the well known Vedic story of Atma and Jiva, the two birds in the pipalla tree (similar to apple tree, as you can see). It is obviously a story about man becoming trapped into dualistic thinking, and nothing to do with sex and 'original sin' as many Christians, post Augustine, would have us think. The theme of him eating the apple from the tree of good and evil is a symbol for him descending into the lower state of consciousness (in some cultures sacred stories, the underworld) which is ruled by good and evil and other such dualities.

One of the books I've found to be most helpful in decoding the symbolism in the Rig-veda is the Secret of the Veda by Sri Aurobindo. After I studied this brilliant work, it was easy to spot the same pattern and similarities of thought in other religions and realise that they must, at one time, have all come from the same source or stories.

So this is just a long, rambling and round-about way (for which I apologise!) for saying that I don't believe that it's necessary for people to change their religion, or even adopt one. What they do need to change, in my view, is their hearts - and then all the rest will make sense to them.