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Thread: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

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    Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste members,

    Some time back I was talking to a arya samaj member, though I have a tremendous respect for the organization, I dont understand its view completely. One of my arya samaji friend told me that according to philosophy of tretavaad expounded by arya samaj, soul gets liberation after good karma and enlightenment of inner self, but according to him soul has to return from the state of moksha after a definite period of time and come to take birth again. Though I have heard some jain scriptures does supports this view of soul returning to samsara after getting moksha, but I never heard anything like this in any other school of sanatan dharm.

    I seek help of learned members, please clear my doubt, can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha ?
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Pranam

    In this regards I quote what Shree Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita

    This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)

    The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

    The sun does not illumine there, nor the moon, nor the fire. That is My supreme abode. Having reached there they do not come back. (15.06)

    Of course great personalities like Narad, Hanuman come and go as they please.

    But if we gain Heaven by good karma

    The knowers of the three Vedas and the drinkers of the juice of Soma (or devotion), whose sins are cleansed, worship Me by Yajna for gaining heaven. As a result of their good Karma they go to heaven and enjoy celestial sense pleasures. (9.20)


    Having enjoyed the wide world of heavenly sense pleasures they return to the mortal world upon exhaustion of their good Karma (or Punya). Thus following the injunctions of three Vedas, the fruitive workers take repeated birth and death. (See also 8.25) (9.21)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Namaste members,

    Some time back I was talking to a arya samaj member, though I have a tremendous respect for the organization, I dont understand its view completely. One of my arya samaji friend told me that according to philosophy of tretavaad expounded by arya samaj, soul gets liberation after good karma and enlightenment of inner self, but according to him soul has to return from the state of moksha after a definite period of time and come to take birth again. Though I have heard some jain scriptures does supports this view of soul returning to samsara after getting moksha, but I never heard anything like this in any other school of sanatan dharm.

    I seek help of learned members, please clear my doubt, can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha ?

    The only time I've heard of it is when a realised soul comes back by choice out of love for humanity, and a drawing to teach, to encourage others along the same path.

    I do believe, personally that a realised soul can, however, have a fall from grace, and have to do it all over again.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste,

    It is an interesting question, one I hadn't ever quite thought about fully right until now. I had always assumed moksha was a finalising state for the soul, and that once it attained a state of perfect Self-realisation, a jivatman would never more be reborn. This might be getting a little out of topic here, but in that case, would this mean that moksha is not a state where all individuality of the soul disappears? I had thought the soul would merge entirely with Brahman so that it cannot even be differentiated from it anymore. If such is the case, how could a soul ever "fall from grace", as you say, EM? Please don't take my tone to be rhetorical; I am genuinely wondering about the nature of this. I could imagine souls reaching an advanced spiritual state and then for some reason reverting back to bad ways, but personally I can't contemplate moksha as being anything other than a state where once you have attained it, you never look back. Moksha always seemed to me something akin to the Buddhist state of Nirvana where Shakyamuni Buddha described: "if you are wrong by so much as the thousandth part of a hair, you will lose (the Way) in a flash".

    The only time I've heard of it is when a realised soul comes back by choice out of love for humanity, and a drawing to teach, to encourage others along the same path.
    I think that is more or less the same belief of many Mahayana Buddhists, where bodhisattvas out of compassion for human suffering delay their own full enlightenment to assist others. I would believe this to be quite true. I have often wondered if maybe some of the greatest souls and spiritual leaders known in history were perhaps not maybe themselves these guiding forces to help steer mankind back along the path of dharma.
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Sunyata: Gosh, I hate speaking from book knowledge or regurgitation. Wish I had some experience in this, but I don't. I guess I have some questions for people who know more of this than me.

    My limited understanding is thus. Moksha means release from birth on this planet, but does not stop the evolution of the soul. The final is total merging, water with water, and our evolution is complete only then. I've been told that moksha is just the beginning. I've also been told that you have to realise the self over and over again. But hey, I'm probably all confused and lacking in any real understanding. I can't even get steady on the muladhara.

    Aum Namasivaya

  6. #6

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste everyone,
    Moksha can be defined with various reference points. One such point which would fit here is that Moksha is a state where an an Atma becomes free(Mukti) from Maya.
    Once Maya is completely removed, that Atma realises that it is Paramatma(in other words, the Atma merges into Paramatma).
    So how can one try to divide the indivisible after this point?(there is no more concept of that Atma anymore, its all only Paramatma).
    for example.
    from an Atma's point of view, it sees everything else around it(Cosmos\Prakruti).
    if the same everything else is seen from a Paramatma's view, can you imagine anything else to be outside the Paramatma?
    This is one of the reasons why Paramatma is called as Sarvavyaapi or All encompassing\all pervading.
    hope this helps,
    please correct me if wrong.
    mukunda

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Although an Advaitin at heart, I have always wondered and tried to contemplate on what is in store in the real state of mokSha. Thanks to Isavasya for initiating a discussion in this thread.

    In the ultimate state of advaita, the jIva that is liberated realizes that it is already brahman, so there is no question of its becoming or merging with brahman: it's only that the jIva is freed of mAyA that veiled this Self-realization.

    But this state of ultimate mokSha is not attainable readily by every sAdhaka--seeker. It is reached only in the stages of what is known as krama-mukti--progressive liberation. It is also dependent on the school of philosophy one is attached to.

    It seems to me that sages like Sankara, RAmAnuja and MAdhva had widely different definitions and paths for the mokSha, not because they perceived it differently, but because of the Ishvara Adesha--divine orders, of the necessity to cater to the jIvas--human souls of different capabilities. And in Bhagavad GItA, the Lord himself brings about a union of the three streams of liberation.

    According to Hinduism, a departed soul takes one of two paths, depending on its spiritual advancement. Normal souls take the pitRuyANa mArga--path of darkness, and reach the world of ancestors in the heavens. In this path, the soul must return to earth on reincarnation, after spending its karma-phala--fruits of good karma. Souls that have no good karma never reach the heavens; they return to the earth from the astral world soon after the end of their last physical life.

    Advanced departed souls take the devayANa--path of light and reach the worlds of Gods. In this path, there is no rebirth until the universe is dissolved at the end of the running kalpa.

    Thus the sages describe eight types of krama-mukti: five for the departed soul (mokSha after death) and three for the living (mokSha while living). Let us note that these stages of krama-mukti are open only to the jIvas that are in the stage of advanced spiritual development--with perfect yama, niyama, karma (actions), dharma, vAirAgya, dhyAna and bhakti, with the right although different stages of jnAna, and with the vital necessity of (the capability of acquiring) God's grace.

    The five types of mokSha after death are described thus:

    1. mukti under an iShTa devata

    The mokSha obtained by worship of a personal god has four stages:

    • Souls who ardently worship an iShTa devata--personal god, such as ViShNu, reach the world of that devata, stay, serve, adore and worship that devata in its own world. This stage is sAlokya mukti. The soul lives in the world of its personal god and enjoys the divine presence, like a devotee enjoys the presence of his/her preferred guru.

    • In sAmIpya mukti, also known as sAnnidhya mukti, the soul lives in the proximity of its personal god, like a shiShya--disciple of a guru. This stage is attained after the soul acquires the capabilities of faith and surrender to its personal god, as in the case of a shiShya with his/her guru.

    • The happiness that is attained in the above two stages, however, cannot be compared to the bliss of the personal god itself. So, with the grace of the personal god, a soul graduates to the next stage of sArUpya mukti and acquires the form of the personal god and enjoys the same, intense bliss as its god. This stage is like an actor playing the role of a god and living the scripted divine life.

    • Souls who are not satisfied with role-playing and are ready for an intimate union, attain the sAyujya mukti, becoming absorbed in the personal god, but still retaining its individuality. This stage can be compared to a shiShya becoming a guru, endowed with the bliss and knowledge of his teacher.

    2. vishiShtadvaita mokSha

    A soul practising bhakti yoga with complete faith and surrender to VishNu/KRShNa attain the mukti prescribed in the vishiShtadvaita school (and its variants).

    In this type of mukti, the soul reaches the vaikuNTha/gokula and lives blissfully with a spiritual body in the presence of ViShNu/KRShNa. The soul acquires many divine powers such as omniscience, but unlike God it cannot create, sustain or dissolve the world.

    3. pUrva mImAMsA mukti

    Souls who perform the karma (rituals) prescribed in the Vedas with faith and vigour attain heavenly bliss forever. There are two opinions as to the nature of this bliss: in one opinion, it is the bliss of the heavens subject to rebirth; in the other, it is state free from pain, suffering and rebirth.

    4. krama mukti or avantara mukti

    A soul that has intensely meditated on saguNa brahman using the sacred symbol of AUM or other prescribed methods, goes to the Brahmaloka after death. There it attains knowledge of the NirguNa Brahman, lives until the dissolution of the universe at the end of the kalpa, and finally meges with Brahman.

    5. apavarga mukti

    Liberation or apavarga is a separation from all qualities. Liberation is a state beyond pleasure, happiness, pain, or any experience whatsoever. It is achieved by cultivating ethical virtues and acquiring the right knowledge of reality. After liberation there is no rebirth.

    The three types of mokSha before death are described thus:

    1. jIvan mukti/videha mukti

    This type of mokSha is the goal, specially of sages of the school of Advaita. The sage performs constant upAsana--worship and pUja and continuously purifies his mind, making it ready for the realization of NirguNa Brahman. The sage also practises intense meditation and attains a condition known as AtmajnAna--knowledge of the Self, which destroys avidya--ignorance that covers the knowledge of the Reality. Once avidya is annihilated, the sage becomes a jIvanmukta--liberated while living.

    The sage lives his life until he exhausts his remaining karma (all of which is brought into the current life--one reason we see many sages suffering physical ailments), all the while immersed in the Self. Finally, when the sage drops his physical body, he attains videha mukti--disembodied liberation. There is no rebirth in this type of mokSha.

    2. sadyo mukti

    A jIvanmukta who has no leftover karma and lost interest in the illusory life with a physical body, may choose to drop his body within days after he attains jIvanmukti, whereby he attains sadyo mukti--instant liberation, with no rebirth.

    3. kaivalya mukti

    Suggested by the SAmkhya School of Philosophy, in this type of mukti, the puruSha--spirit, which is bound to prakRiti--body-mind complex, upon attaining viveka-jnAna--knowledge of wisdom, severs the connection with prakRiti and is liberated permanently.

    **********

    Although one can easily understand and appreciate the krama-mukti forms and stages described above, some questions remain:

    • A person like RamaNa Maharshi or KAnchi ParamAcharya, who were jIvanmuktas when they lived, and then attained an eternal mokSha free from rebirth, is reported by some ardent devotees to visit their dreams and do them spiritual favours. Who or what exactly is responsible for such visitations in their earlier human forms? Assuming that the reports are not imagined dreams because of some lasting physical effects (such as cure of an ailment), how do we account for the visitations?

    • Hindu Rishis of yore are spoken of as still living in the worlds of jana, maha and tapas, immediately under the satya (brahma) loka. Although jIvanmuktas, they continue to live in these worlds and sometimes visit people astrally, dispensing spiritual wisdom and effecting course corrections. How do the Rishis, who are permanently liberated, retain their identities and do these tasks?

    • Our PurANas say that even the TrimUrti--Brahma, VishNu and Shiva are always in meditation. Since they are only SanguNa Brahman projected over the NirguNa Brahman, what do they meditate upon?

    A possible answer is that these Gods meditate for the sake of their creation, as well as to keep their ego at bay.

    Some links:
    krama mukti
    http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archi...er/032497.html

    Samadhi and deep sleep
    http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archi...er/024885.html

    States of mokSha and their meanings:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppi.../msg00116.html

    Moksha or Liberation From Samsara
    http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hindu/...ndu-moksha.htm

    Progressive Salvation
    http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/realis/realis_6a.html

    The Flight Of The Subtle Body
    http://living.oneindia.in/yoga-spiri...on-030209.html
    Last edited by saidevo; 10 November 2009 at 10:40 AM.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

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    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste everyone.

    Thanks all of you for putting in the posts, it was good to get clarified in this filed.

    Respected saidevo ji, must say I didnt knew about the kinds of mukti you just mentioned in your last post.So much of thanks to you. Interesting, I had read some where that until prabhakara and kumarailla bhatta took on works on mimamsa, Mimsakas had a strong belief that attainment of heaven was the highest state and their concept of moksha was not like it is mentioned in upanishads.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata07 View Post
    Namaste,

    This might be getting a little out of topic here, but in that case, would this mean that moksha is not a state where all individuality of the soul disappears? I had thought the soul would merge entirely with Brahman so that it cannot even be differentiated from it anymore.
    Namaste, I think it depends upon which kind of moksha we get, I think souls lose their individuality completely according to advaita philosophy, though it may correct to say that what ever kind of moksha you get, it is once for ever.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

  9. #9

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    For this first you should understand moksha itself. Moksha itself are of different types. One form of Moksha is to merge with Brahman; Brahman is the space which is the formless existence of eternity . Bhaktas call it the light from the Lord's body and Jnanis call it Brahman. When one merges in that attributeless Jyoti; individuality of the soul is not destroyed. In that case the soul comes back after lifetimes of millions of Brahma and has to start material life from scratch. The other type of Moksha is to merge within the body of the Lord Himself which is also called sayuja mukti ; the state of what demons achieve after their destruction by the Lord. This is called the annhilation of the soul itself. When one attains such moksha , the living entity never returns. There are other six types of mokshas but these others are the those achieved by a Bhakta and is not open for Karma Yogis and Jnanis.

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