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Thread: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

  1. #11

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Quote Originally Posted by atlast View Post
    After winning Grace with Realisation one has finally achieved, Liberation. Liberation is not Moksha, as liberation is achieving 'NO' more rebirth. Moksha is merging back in becoming one with God. When one has no more rebirth, one 'can' volunteer if one wants to come back into samsara for a specific purpose, but still must be given permission from a High. But who wants to come back? The purpose of life in samsara is to realise ones true self, that which is God.
    namaste
    very wise statement .
    moksha may be an imaginary term but I don’t believe it to be philosophical too .
    go to shloka 44/11 ch Arjuna talks logical as ..Prasadaye.. for the mercy and therefore in 45/11 says...praseedye.. be graceful O lord .
    why because see 58/18 and 62/18 what goes to achieve moksha the peace .. tad prasadat prapyasi Sthanum..
    jai Sri Krsna

  2. #12

    Cool Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste
    There are many different terms which mean similar things. Moskha, Samadhi and so forth.

    Many levels of non-retrogression are there. I.e., one never loses them, but also one must be very careful.

    Satsang is so very helpful and important. Swamiji speaks about this..

    Satsang is described in many places.

    Tyagaraja, Sant Tukarama, some others sing about these things.

    Those bhajans are very nice.



    (Mods can you please reinstate my ability to post without waiting.)
    Gam Gam Ganapati
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2mXQjrK1bwQ

    Dattavani.org
    https://dattavani.org/pravachana-malika/datta-vaakya/

  3. #13

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Hello and Namaste,

    My understanding is that we are all by nature originally eternal beings who served Krishna. If that is the case, that we decided of our own free will to come to the material world from the realm of perfect Bliss and Beatitude, what is to stop us from doing so again, if that is our expression of free will?

    Another consideration is, if all conditioned souls get liberated, and that liberation is eternal, how can Krishna sport in his leelas here in this material world, kill the demons and save his devotees, etc. There would be no one to save, in that case, it seems to me.

    So I am of the opinion that there is always the possibility of coming down. That is my perspective.

  4. #14
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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste,

    Being eternal does not mean "Soul" was serving Krishna. Those who are in the mode/mood of serving Krishna do continue to serve Krishan regardless of where they are - as the Service to Krishna. Such soul, who are already "Serving" Krishna, may take birth again ( again this is my personal understanding that, such soul will only take birth with its marginal portion - that will not go through any karma - as the service of Krishna continues in the birth as well) - this is not coming back or fall but BEING with Krishna and serving Krishna alone.

    In general, birth is due to Karma and thus, Serving Krshna and being part of His leela is still considered eternal. The concept of NithyaSooris will explain this philosophical understanding clearly.

    Hare Krishna.

  5. #15
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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    I have not been here for a while, like a year, but a very welcomed birthday wish was sent to me from these forums.
    Many years ago while reading books concerning Sri Ramakrishna and his writings. It was at this time that I first heard "twice born", meaning a person who has returned to this plane after mahasamadhi to continue to serve humanity.

    I have seen the words "good" and "karma" together, while I can not cite a chapter and verse but my understanding is there is no "good" and "bad" karma just karma. Good and bad being subjective terms. It is also my understanding from study that "moksha" and "mukti" means freedom from rebirth and samsara.

    Being free from rebirth does not mean reunion with Shiva because there are 3 worlds,14 planes 3 spheres and more in the Vedic-Agamic cosmology where an atman may be, remember we are talking about states of consciousness, on a progression. As alluded to I think the "twice born" is applied to those rare persons who appear to have a priori knowledge of spiritual matters. I don't know the answer but I don't think so. Karma is a law like gravity, cause and effect every action has a reaction of equal and it is my understanding that it must be in balance to attain moksha, freedom from rebirth. Perhaps the OP means that if the atman some how fails in Shiva's second world lokas will it return to Bhuloka, the plane we are on. What could that be caused by?

    OM namah shivaya OM sante sante I have not been here for a while, like a year, but a very welcomed birthday wish was sent to me from these forums.
    Many years ago while reading books concerning Sri Ramakrishna and his writings. It was at this time that I first heard "twice born", meaning a person who has returned to this plane after mahasamadhi to continue to serve humanity.

    I have seen the words "good" and "karma" together, while I can not cite a chapter and verse but my understanding is there is no "good" and "bad" karma just karma. Good and bad being subjective terms. It is also my understanding from study that "moksha" and "mukti" means freedom from rebirth and samsara.

    Being free from rebirth does not mean reunion with Shiva because there are 3 worlds,14 planes 3 spheres and more in the Vedic-Agamic cosmology where an atman may be, remember we are talking about states of consciousness, on a progression. As alluded to I think the "twice born" is applied to those rare persons who appear to have a priori knowledge of spiritual matters. I don't know the answer but I don't think so.

    om namah shivaya om
    All is Siva there is nothing without Siva.

  6. #16
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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste

    Chandogya Upanishad talks about Panchagnividya in the 5th Prapathaka. It mentions Uttarayana and Dakshinayana in X.1 – 10, similar does Bhagavad Gita in VIII.23 – 28. In the Mahabharata Bhishma is waiting till Uttarayana to leave the world.

    Moksha could be the equivalent of Uttarayana. But I cannot find a term for Dakshinayana as an equivalent.

    Some Puranas mention Uttarayana and Dakshinayana as a cosmic event but not as a way of salvation or no salvation. What they say is that the heavenly abode is not forever, one has to come back after punya is used up. They do not use a term for that.

    Chandogya Upanishad - 5th Prapathaka Chapter X

    1. Those who know this (even though they still be grihasthas, householders) and those who in the forest follow faith and austerities (the vânaprasthas, and of the parivrâgakas those who do not yet know the Highest Brahman) go to light (arkis), from light to day, from day to the light half of the moon, from the light half of the moon to the six months when the sun goes to the north, from the six months when the sun goes to the north to the year, from the year to the sun, from the sun to the moon, from the moon to the lightning. There is a person not human,--

    2. 'He leads them to Brahman (the conditioned Brahman). This is the path of the Devas.

    3. 'But they who living in a village practise (a life of) sacrifices, works of public utility, and alms, they go to the smoke, from smoke to night, from night to the dark half of the moon, from the dark half of the moon to the six months when the sun goes to the south. But they do not reach the year.

    4. 'From the months they go to the world of the fathers, from the world of the fathers to the ether, from the ether to the moon. That is Soma, the king. Here they are loved (eaten) by the Devas, yes, the Devas love (eat) them.

    5. 'Having dwelt there, till their (good) works are consumed, they return again that way as they came, to the ether, from the ether to the air. Then the sacrificer, having become air, becomes smoke, having become smoke, he becomes mist,

    Bhagavad Gita - Chapter VIII

    23. O best of the Bhāratas, I shall now explain to you the different times at which, passing away from this world, the yogi does or does not come back.

    24. Those who know the Supreme Brahman attain that Supreme by passing away from the world during the influence of the fiery god, in the light, at an auspicious moment of the day, during the fortnight of the waxing moon, or during the six months when the sun travels in the north.

    25. The mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the fortnight of the waning moon, or the six months when the sun passes to the south reaches the moon planet but again comes back.

    26. According to Vedic opinion, there are two ways of passing from this world – one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

    Pranam
    Last edited by Indialover; 14 December 2020 at 01:31 AM.
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

  7. #17

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Post got duplicated for some reason
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 12 December 2020 at 03:55 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #18

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste

    Nice answers and while Grames, IndiaLover and others have covered the Leela (pArshads accompanying BhagavAn on earth) and the HOW part,

    (IndiaLover, a request - to specify the Bhagvad Geeta chapter number as well).

    BhagavAn Shri KRshNa also says :

    BG 15.6
    na tad bhAsayate sUryo
    na shashAnko na pAvakah: |
    yad gatvA na nivartante tad dhAma paramam mama ||


    "T
    here" neither the Sun (or an illuminating celestial entity - 'a' sun-star), not the moon, nor electricity is found [nor required].
    That abode / place , where once reached, one does not return [here to the mortal world] , is My Highest Abode.


    BhagavAn is implying that this place is Self-illuminating. There is no trace of darkness (avidyA) there. If there is no trace of avidyA , no desires, no specifically local-egoistic endeavours, no attempt to serve the ego, then there is no need to come back from that state.

    Here, at one level, the place (dhAm) can be taken as a state of being - and with that interpretation, the "dhAm" is right here , while living this life.

    At the cosmic or videhi level (videhi avasthA = disembodied state - after the mukta has left the mortal body) - it can be a state and place.

    The best part is it can be a STATE irrespective of the place.

    The prayer should be "He paramAtmA, I surrrender to You. Wherever You place me, I should never forget You (always be in communion with You), never forget my true nature or Who I truly am."

    That would be in alignment with the BG18.66 sarva dharma parityajjya mAmekaM sharaNam vraja ... verse, and truly following BhagvAn Shri KRshNa's instructions.

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 16 December 2020 at 11:22 PM. Reason: mAmekaM M missing
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste ameyAtmA

    The verses are specified in the first paragraph.

    The terms sun and moon are metaphors. Whoever does not get beyond the sphere of the moon has to make empirical experiences again, has to take a body and come back to earth.

    Whoever crosses the sphere of the moon enters the formless, the ultimate, Brahman as described in your verse of Bhagavad Gita XV.6.

    There is a similar verse in Tirumantiram - 1853
    Worship Nandi Beyond the Spheres of Sun and Moon
    When beyond the Spheres of Sun and Moon you ascend
    There Bindu and Nada are;
    Ascending (through Adharas) thus,
    Your Awareness crosses
    The frontiers of Waking State;
    There when you continuous worship Nandi,
    That verily is worship Divine.

    Tantra 7 deals with the concept of sun and moon in depth
    https://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/tirumantiram/web/Tantra_7.html

    If we see moksha as a state of consciousness, like mukti, samadhi, turiya and who knows how many other terms there may be, it corresponds with the meaning of Moksha – become free of moha, illusion.

    In the Puranas, however, moksha is used in the sense of 'Ishvara's mercy'. Ishvara has mercy and takes the devotee to his abode.

    See Gajendra Moksha, where Moksha is already given in the title.
    A king is cursed to be born as an elephant, a gandharva is cursed to be born as a crocodile. Both meet. The cursed gandharva is killed by Vishnu and becomes a gandharva again, without action on his side. He returns to be what he was.
    Gajendra does something, he prays and Vishnu takes him to his abode. He does not return (?).

    Is this puranic abode the sphere that Krishna describes in XV.6?

    Bhakti poetry is also full of 'Shiva/Vishnu took him to his abode' or 'he became one with Shiva/Vishnu'. To reach it one has to be a good person and a devotee. A state of consciousness is not mentioned.

    Seems the term depends on the literary genre and the darshana.

    Puranas and Bhakti poetry talk about Moksha/Mukti. The scriptures talking about consciousness use Samadhi/Turiya. Upanishads talk about becoming Brahman.

    There is no treatise necessary to teach about the ‚coming back‘. It is so easy.

    Pranam
    Dance with Shiva - live with Shiva - merge with Shiva

  10. #20

    Re: Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

    Namaste IndiaLover

    I did not notice that you had mentioned the Chandogya and Gita chapters in the first para -- I just saw the bold titles without chapter numbers. That is all.


    The
    way I see it - dhAm - abode,place and state of consciousness -
    a) go hand in hand
    b) one can be a mukta irrespective of the place as long as there is grace, and also mumukshatva.

    The 3rd thing, and most important = GRACE of BhagavAn / Ishvar - without which you can neither go to a place nor elevate the state of conciousness.

    Samadhi is not necessarily one rigid meaning.

    So I do not seggregate the language of upanishad , Bhagvad Geeta or the purANs. Because it is all interconnected. Generally to go to a certain abode you have to be in an elevated level of consciousness. Otherwise you will not be able to maintain the status quo there. You may not even like it there.

    Gajendra did take a step - and that was "surrender" - prApatti. With leg in Guha's mouth, suddenly he had the wisdom to call Hari, to turn to Hari, and had understood Who matters and Who the ultimate shelter is - and had developed vairAgya -- all in a matter of a few minutes.
    He sang a devotional poem. All of this was a drastic leap in consciousness.

    A large percentage of Yogis who arrive at the peaceful state are generally theistic and constantly being showered by the Lord's grace. They are in sAnidhya (associate with) their IshTa -- so they are in His abode and simultaneously here.


    Thanks for the links.
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 16 December 2020 at 10:56 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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