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Thread: Aham Brahmasmi

  1. #21
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    As Atanuji , hints...for translation , God alone is real . I find this in line as....Dwau suparna sakhayau...yaj.
    Namaste Guptaji,

    It goes further. To see and know the 'Dwau suparna sakhayau', a Seer is required. Brahman is not the object. It is the subject under all states and beyond states. If one truly surrenders and follows up the teaching of Shri Krishna, one joins the Seer.

    “Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

    Good is ego less Dvaita worship but not so ego worship, since such worshippers make Brahman into an object, which is actually ignorance (edited from original pApa), especially after being told by Lord repeatedly that Brahman is the sole Seer, Knower, Doer. Worshipping Ganga with Ganga water is good but it may not be good to feel superior to one who says "mA, how can i offer to you that which is yours to begin with?"

    I hope that you will agree to some extent at least.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 20 November 2009 at 11:41 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  2. #22
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    namaskar,


    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Good is ego less Dvaita worship but not so ego worship, since such worshippers make Brahman into an object, which is actually pApa, especially after being told by Lord repeatedly that Brahman is the sole Seer, Knower, Doer. Worshipping Ganga with Ganga water is good but it may not be good to feel superior to one who says "mA, how can i offer to you that which is yours to begin with?"

    I hope that you will agree to some extent at least.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Most of India is worshipping the ultimate in one shape or the other. Are you saying most hindus are committing pApa by doing this?

    Hmmm...
    satay

  3. #23
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaskar,

    Most of India is worshipping the ultimate in one shape or the other. Are you saying most hindus are committing pApa by doing this?

    Hmmm...
    Namaste Satay,

    Taken to its extreme, yes -- as seen of Religious extremism and conversion efforts of so-called superior men of christian God. Else how can a person kill in the name of God?

    God made into an object of mind and then trying to impose that image is pApa born of ignorance.

    Hindus do not impose. You said: Most of India is worshipping the ultimate in one shape or the other. That contains answer.

    PS: However, thank you for pointing out the extreme of me. I have modified the post in question.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 20 November 2009 at 11:40 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Satay,

    Taken to its extreme, yes -- as seen of Religious extremism and conversion efforts of so-called superior men of christian God. Else how can a person kill in the name of God?
    Hmm...okay.

    God made into an object of mind and then trying to impose that image is pApa born of ignorance.
    Sorry, I am not comprehending this. Even according to sankaracarya the world is real to those who are in ignorance i.e. the vyvaharic (sp?) world exists for those who believe that it does exist. So how can we say that it is pApa? Perhaps you are saying that 'trying to impose one's worldview on others is pApa'? Is that what you are saying?

    Sorry, not trying to derail the thread but just trying to understand.
    satay

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste,
    Hmm...okay.

    Sorry, I am not comprehending this. Even according to sankaracarya the world is real to those who are in ignorance i.e. the vyvaharic (sp?) world exists for those who believe that it does exist. So how can we say that it is pApa? Perhaps you are saying that 'trying to impose one's worldview on others is pApa'? Is that what you are saying?

    Sorry, not trying to derail the thread but just trying to understand.
    Namaste Satay,

    I am sorry for using an inappropriate word pApa, which I have replaced with ignorance (ajnaanam). pApa is not an irreducible aspect as ignorance is. In other words, at least advaitins do not recognise pApa. It is ignorance of Dvaita, carried to extreme, that leads to intoleration, coertion, and killing of others not alligned to one's belief.

    Declaration of such bhakti as 'Enjoying rasa at Lord's feet' as superior to other aims is of course a faith of only a mild nature. Yet it is ignorance. Since Brahman is not the object but the subject itself, as taught through Aham Brahmasmi, realised by following up:

    BG 13.12 Adhyaatma jnaana nityatwam tattwa jnaanaartha darshanam;
    Etajjnaanamiti proktam ajnaanam yadato’nyathaa.


    BG 13.13 Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;
    Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.
    -----------------------
    Lord Krishna does say that not abiding in Adhyaatma jnaana is ajnaanam.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #26

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post

    ... we have yet to discuss Consciousness. Is Consciousness different from matter/energy/space, or is it another form of the same Reality ? Can anyone throw some light ?
    OM
    Some food for thought...

    "All this is guided by Consciousness, is supported by Consciousness. The basis is Consciousness. Consciousness is Brahman [Prajnanam Brahma]."

    This whole world is prevaded by Me in My unmanifest form. All beings exist in Me, but I am not contained in them!” (Bhagavad Gita 9.4)

    I read a nice explanation of this that goes as follows:
    All beings exist in Me” = there is gold in ornaments
    but I am not contained in them” = there are no ornaments in gold

    Gold is permanent, ornament is impermanent.

    • When seeing only name/form of the ornament it’s different from gold… Dvaita
    • When seeing both name/form and the fact its gold… Visishta Advaita
    • When seeing only gold… Advaita


    Is one view truer than the other? ^^ If so how?
    “There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done.” (sss20-15)

  7. #27
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Pranam Atanu ji

    not wishing to derail this thread, but i could not help my self.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Satay,

    I am sorry for using an inappropriate word pApa, which I have replaced with ignorance (ajnaanam). pApa is not an irreducible aspect as ignorance is. In other words, at least advaitins do not recognise pApa. It is ignorance of Dvaita, carried to extreme, that leads to intoleration, coertion, and killing of others not alligned to one's belief.

    you should read up on qualities of a bhakta chapter 12 Bhagvat Gita. the world would be a better place, if everyone cultivate that path

    as desired by Krishna, contrary to as you might say would lead someone to be as quoted that leads to intoleration, coertion, and killing of others not aligned to one's belief, .


    Declaration of such bhakti as 'Enjoying rasa at Lord's feet' as superior to other aims is of course a faith of only a mild nature. Yet it is ignorance.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Hmm, lets see what Lord Krishna says regarding ignorance

    sankhya-yogau prthag balah
    pravadanti na panditah
    ekam apy asthitah samyag
    ubhayor vindate phalam

    Only the ignorant speak of karma-yoga and devotional service as being different from the analytical study of the material world [sankhya]. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both.

    But then he also says this

    Neither by study of the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by charity, nor by ritual, can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. (11.53)


    bhaktya tv ananyaya sakya
    aham evam-vidho 'rjuna
    jnatum drastum ca tattvena
    pravestum ca parantapa


    However, only by undivided devotional service, I can be seen in this form, can be known in essence, and also can be reached, O Arjuna. (11.54)

    Let us not defame either path, they both have their place in Hindu Dharma.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #28
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Namaste Atanu, Satay, Gupta ji & all,

    Whenever we discuss Advaita, there are some suggestions as if Advaita doesn't believe in Bhakti ! That is a gross misunderstanding. If that was true then Sankaracharya would have not composed Bhaj Govindam. Then the Advaitins would have not suggested that Grace of God is necessary for success on this path etc.

    Let's see this verse from Bhagwad Gita :

    Sanyaasah karmayogashcha nihshreyaskaravubau l
    Nirdwando hi mahaabaaho sukham bandhatpramuchyate ll BG 5.2 ll

    In the above verse Lord speaks of only two paths : Sannyaas & Karmayoga. He doesn't talk about Bhakti Yoga separately. Why ? Because Bhakti is common to both the paths.

    What is Bhakti ? This term has been misunderstood like nothing else. If I see Lord Krishna in human form wearing certain types of clothes, with a cow beside him & a flute in his hands ... then I am a Bhakta & if I see the same Lord Krishna in all beings & in everything, as infinite Brahman which pervades everything ("Aham "Aatma gudaakesha Sarvabhootaashaya sthitah" ... is it wrong ?) .... then my Bhakti is under question ? If I offer some flowers, incense-sticks-fragrance, sound of ringing bells, singing bhajans, then I am a great Bhakta & if I constantly meditate on Him & feel one-ness with him, then I am not a Bhakta ?

    This Bhakti doesn't mean only ritualistic worshipping & Lord Krishna also keeps ritualistic worship at a much lower place in this verse :

    "Shreyo hi jnaanam abhyaasaat jnaanaat dhyaanam vishishyate l" ( BG 12.12)

    ===> "Abhyaas" or Practice is ritualistic worship
    ===> "Jnaan" or Knowledge is understanding of scriptures ... this is kept higher than Abhyaas
    ===> "Dhyaan" is meditation

    Let's not forget that this chapter is not dedicated to Jnaan Yoga but to Bhakti Yoga & yet Lord places meditation much above the "practice' in that verse.

    In the same chapter, Lord Krishna says in verse 12.2 : " I consider devotee of Me in sagunrupa as shreshtha yogi". In verse 12.3 he says about the devotee meditating on of niraakaar Brahman as : " Te praapnuvanti maameva" ( He attains me)!

    The Jnana has always been accorded a high status by Lord Krishna. Let's see these verses :

    Shreyaadravyamyaadyajnajnanyajnah parantapa l
    sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate ll 4.33 ll

    In the above verse, Lord Krishna says in unequivocal terms that Jnaan yajna is much better than Dravya-yajna (materialistic & ritualistic). The verses 4.33 to 4.39 establishes the higher status accorded to Jnaan.

    Again in verses 7.16 to 7.18 of BG, Lord Krishna again shows his preference to Jnaani than the other three types of Bhaktas.

    How do the Advaita teachers see Bhakti & Jnaan yoga :

    It is Brahman that, in association with MAyA – even the words ‘in association with’ are wrong; for Brahman does no work and so does not ‘associate’ itself with anything; so we should more precisely say ‘appearing to be in association with’ – is the Ishvara that monitors and manages both the universe and the JIvas. It is in His control all this world of JIvas rolls about. When that is so, for us to transcend this curtain of MAyA, and to get out also of His control so that we may realise the Brahman that is the core of Him as well as us, is not possible without the sanction of that power, namely Ishvara. In other words only by the Grace of Ishvara can our mind be overcome and Brahman-realisation can happen.
    ---- from Advaita Saadhanaa

    Again :

    It is for these twin tasks of purification of mind and of making it one-pointed that the Acharya (Sankaracharya) has prescribed karma and bhakti as preliminary to jnAna yoga. The prerequisite to starting jnAna yoga are karma yoga and bhakti yoga.
    The barren land of the mind has to be tilled through karma yoga and then watered through bhakti yoga. Without this tilling and watering, nothing can be made to grow in that barren land of the mind.
    ------ from Advaita Saadhanaa

    I hope it removes some doubts over devotion and Jnaan Yoga {which is being discussed here}.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #29
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Atanu ji
    But then he also says this
    Neither by study of the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by charity, nor by ritual, can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. (11.53)

    bhaktya tv ananyaya sakya
    aham evam-vidho 'rjuna
    jnatum drastum ca tattvena
    pravestum ca parantapa
    However, only by undivided devotional service, I can be seen in this form, can be known in essence, and also can be reached, O Arjuna. (11.54)

    Let us not defame either path, they both have their place in Hindu Dharma.
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

    I do not know how the 'Undivided Devotion' in the verse 11.54 becomes 'Devotional Service'? Undivided Devotion means loving attachment/attention to one thing only, which is Dhyana. I am not defaming Bhakti. Without love, the ways of Jnana will be tasteless and indeed impossible to traverse. My teacher warns in sternest way not to differentiate Bhakti (loving application of mind to one alone) from Jnana, which in one word is Dhyana.

    In the above verse quoted by you also, the undivided devotion leads to the attention concentrated only on the object of devotion, leading to exclusion of all other diversions, and eventually absorption. And this is absorption in Self, which is the SUBJECT and LORD. On the other hand, the lack of undivided devotion (scattered attention and lack of love) does not lead to centering of mind in Self. Else why would one constantly compare and assert: My way is superior? 'Undivided Bhakti' and 'Stitha Pragnya' are two words signifying the same thing. Else, Ghana Shyam (Pragnya Ghana Sarvesvara) would not teach:

    “Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

    ------------------------
    Undivided devotion and being Pragnya Stitha to me are the same. Both states cannot give rise to any scope for comparisons of superiority or inferiority. I am not trying to defame LOVE of Bhakti. I am trying to bring to attention that Brahman/Atman/Lord is the subject, which initiate bhaktas hung on 'SUPERIORITY' theme ignore or do not know.

    The Lord is the very heart of everone. One may teach a particular group of a particular way. But to oppose that 'The Lord is the very heart of everyone', is to contradict Hindu Shashtra.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 20 November 2009 at 11:53 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #30
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

    By the teaching of Shankara in Vivekachudamani, Bhakti is the first requirement.

    31. Among things conducive to Liberation, devotion (Bhakti) holds the supreme place. The seeking after one’s real nature is designated as devotion.

    46. Faith (Shraddha), devotion and the Yoga of meditation – these are mentioned by the Shruti as the immediate factors of Liberation in the case of a seeker; whoever abides in these gets Liberation from the bondage of the body, which is the conjuring of Ignorance.
    -------------------------------------------

    Frankly speaking, to me, Shankara encompasses all shruti, treating the object of devotion not as a mere object but as the subject, as the very heart of the bhakta. I am sure that Dvaita Gurus do not treat God as the mere object, but many devotees do so. We often have seen very severe attacks against Shankara's teachings. In contrast what is said here is only loving devotion.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 20 November 2009 at 11:51 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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