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Thread: Aham Brahmasmi

  1. #31
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Namaste Atanu,

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    By the teaching of Shankara in Vivekachudamani, Bhakti is the first requirement.

    31. Among things conducive to Liberation, devotion (Bhakti) holds the supreme place. The seeking after oneТs real nature is designated as devotion.
    And how can we forget that the very first verse is dedicated to God (Lord Krishna) as the Guru in Vivekachudamani ?

    "Sarvavedantasiddhantagocharam tam agocharam l
    Govindam parmaanandam sadgurum praNatosmyaham ll" VC.1 ll

    I prostrate myself before Govinda, the true Guru & ultimate Bliss, who is unattainable resort of all scriptures and Vedanta.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #32

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Guptaji,

    It goes further. To see and know the 'Dwau suparna sakhayau', a Seer is required. Brahman is not the object. It is the subject under all states and beyond states. If one truly surrenders and follows up the teaching of Shri Krishna, one joins the Seer.

    УNoble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goalФЧVII.18.

    Good is ego less Dvaita worship but not so ego worship, since such worshippers make Brahman into an object, which is actually ignorance (edited from original pApa), especially after being told by Lord repeatedly that Brahman is the sole Seer, Knower, Doer. Worshipping Ganga with Ganga water is good but it may not be good to feel superior to one who says "mA, how can i offer to you that which is yours to begin with?"

    I hope that you will agree to some extent at least.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanuji
    I am oblized that you provided two good thoughts 1. Offering ganga water to ganga 2.brahma is a subject and not the object . Certainly these two points add the discussion of Bhakti to current thread
    and not derail the thread .
    1. Offering ganga water to ganga is just offering water to sun , to brahma....patram pushpam phalam Toyam. Neither it is Paap nor Ignorance and is purely spiritual as well as scientific , and it is just like
    feeding soil [ food ] to soil [ body ] . If a patient does not want to take the medicine it is injected , similarly Gyan and Karm when are obsolete and are covered with Maya , here I say hallucination , the
    Hunger or Bhakti plays the role of injection . see what Krsn says..
    Daivee hyeshaa gunamayee mama maayaa duratyayaa;
    Maameva ye prapadyante maayaametaam taranti te.
    Here prapadyante means only Bhakti .
    2. How Shruti illustrate Brahma being an Object and surrounded by bhakti [ also to refer Snipji that vedas contain Bhakti ]
    Arhan vibharshi saykani dhanvarhan nishkam yajtam vishwarupam, arrhanidam dayase vishwamabhyam na va ojivo rudra twadasti...rig 2/33/10
    O brahma , o Rudra , [ object ] you take bow . Here I shall like to insist that shruti says for Sakar [ Idol worship ] also .

  3. #33
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    Namaste Atanuji
    I am oblized that you provided two good thoughts 1. Offering ganga water to ganga 2.brahma is a subject and not the object . Certainly these two points add the discussion of Bhakti to current thread
    and not derail the thread .
    1. Offering ganga water to ganga is just offering water to sun , to brahma....patram pushpam phalam Toyam. Neither it is Paap nor Ignorance and is purely spiritual as well as scientific , and it is just like
    feeding soil [ food ] to soil [ body ] . If a patient does not want to take the medicine it is injected , similarly Gyan and Karm when are obsolete and are covered with Maya , here I say hallucination , the
    Hunger or Bhakti plays the role of injection . see what Krsn says..
    Daivee hyeshaa gunamayee mama maayaa duratyayaa;
    Maameva ye prapadyante maayaametaam taranti te.
    Here prapadyante means only Bhakti .
    namaste guptaji,

    The issue with bhakti is already discussed in above few posts. When the the object of bhakti is nearest in the heart, to worship anyadevata can just be an intermediate step to purify mind and improve concentration..

    BG 13.12 Adhyaatma jnaana nityatwam tattwa jnaanaartha darshanam;
    Etajjnaanamiti proktam ajnaanam yadato’nyathaa.

    12. Constancy in Self-knowledge, perception of the end of true knowledge—this is declared to be knowledge, and what is opposed to it is ignorance.

    Guptaji I am not denigrating Bhakti. Just the opposite. I am trying to constantly defend against denigration and remind attackers of passages as above. Lord has said that anything opposed to Atma Jnana is ignorance.

    2. How Shruti illustrate Brahma being an Object and surrounded by bhakti [ also to refer Snipji that vedas contain Bhakti ]
    Arhan vibharshi saykani dhanvarhan nishkam yajtam vishwarupam, arrhanidam dayase vishwamabhyam na va ojivo rudra twadasti...rig 2/33/10
    O brahma , o Rudra , [ object ] you take bow . Here I shall like to insist that shruti says for Sakar [ Idol worship ] also .
    Are you referring to brahmA or to brahman?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #34

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    I just want to refer the following vedmantra
    Agnirasmi janmana jatveda ghratam me chakshurmratam ma aasana .
    Let the gyani have the bhakti ganga and bhakt have illuminating sun of gyan in their Heart .

  5. #35
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Pranam Atanu ji

    As I said before I have no desire to derail this thread, we can play with words as much as we want and it is very easy to get mislead or misread what is intended, that is the power of vak. I know there was no service in the verse I quoted yet service is not devoid in a bhakta.

    I only intervened because of what I perceived to be an attack on bhakti, that the followers are in ignorance. Which you have since qualified as not the case. Bhakti and gyan are not mutually exclusive, we will always stress either, depending on what colour glass we are wearing.

    For a gyani bhakti is a stepping stone where else for a bhakta merging is not an option, gaining bhakti is the final emancipation.

    mac-citta mad-gata-prana
    bodhayantah parasparam
    kathayantas ca mam nityam
    tusyanti ca ramanti ca

    yoginam api sarvesam
    mad-gatenantar-atmana
    sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
    sa me yuktatamo matah.
    I offer no translation bg 10.9 and 6.47
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  6. #36
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    I just want to refer the following vedmantra
    Agnirasmi janmana jatveda ghratam me chakshurmratam ma aasana .
    Let the gyani have the bhakti ganga and bhakt have illuminating sun of gyan in their Heart .
    Namaste Guptaji,

    That is good. Faith, Devotion are said the be jnAnA mAtA and these go together in sadhakas of good intent. I did not say that worshipping Ganga with Ganga water is ajnanam (ignorance) but not knowing "I am worshipping Ganga with Ganga water" is ignorance. Similarly, not knowing the subject (the Seer, The Buddhi, the Knower, the Doer) and yet asserting "I am a superior bhakta" or "my way is better", IMO suggests unripe bhakta, who usually are very harsh and very easily say "Shankara taught to misguide", without knowing what Shri Krishna teaches. Shri Krishna teaches:

    4.24. Brahman is the oblation; Brahman is the melted butter (ghee); by Brahman is the oblation poured into the fire of Brahman; Brahman verily shall be reached by him who always sees Brahman in action.

    and also:

    BG, 4th Chapter

    Api chedasi paapebhyah sarvebhyah paapakrittamah;
    Sarvam jnaanaplavenaiva vrijinam santarishyasi.
    36. Even if thou art the most sinful of all sinners, yet thou shalt verily cross all sins by the raft of knowledge.

    Yathaidhaamsi samiddho’gnir bhasmasaat kurute’rjuna;
    Jnaanaagnih sarvakarmaani bhasmasaat kurute tathaa.
    37. As the blazing fire reduces fuel to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge reduce all actions to ashes!

    Na hi jnaanena sadrisham pavitram iha vidyate;
    Tat swayam yogasamsiddhah kaalenaatmani vindati.
    38. Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. He who is perfected in Yoga finds it in the Self in time.

    Shraddhaavaan labhate jnaanam tatparah samyatendriyah;
    Jnaanam labdhvaa paraam shaantim achirenaadhigacchati.
    39. The man who is full of faith, who is devoted to it, and who has subdued all the senses, obtains (this) knowledge; and, having obtained the knowledge, he goes at once to the supreme peace.

    --------------------------


    Devotee,

    Sorry for the diversion. I suppose diversions are also useful. Please continue.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #37
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Atanu ji
    I only intervened because of what I perceived to be an attack on bhakti, that the followers are in ignorance.
    Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

    Has any jnAnA upasaka been agressive? If you see all threads, you will find only defence. I have no cause to divide jnana, bhakti, and karma. Explanation is given in the previous post.

    Further, I respectifully remind that Turiyam is actionless as per Shruti. To know Turiyam (which the shruti enjoins) and yet have a feeling of doing a service do not go together. So, when a bhakta asserts that we wish to serve only, they must also acknowledge that their goal is not to know the Turiyam. That would be honest and perfectly OK.

    But to try to show that jnAnA upasakas are pursuing a false and lower goal (as a bhaktajan attempted and as christians also do) will surely be opposed, at least by me. Let this be an egoistic assertion of me.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #38
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Pranam atanu


    But to try to show that jnAnA upasakas are pursuing a false and lower goal (as a bhaktajan attempted and as christians also do) will surely be opposed, at least by me. Let this be an egoistic assertion of me.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    There is neither bhaktajan nor any christians on this thread, so I am not sure what you are defeding against since there was no attack on this thread to begin with. No one here on this thread has tried to show that Gyan upasakas are pursuing a false and lower goal.

    Further, I respectifully remind that Turiyam is actionless as per Shruti. To know Turiyam (which the shruti enjoins) and yet have a feeling of doing a service do not go together. So, when a bhakta asserts that we wish to serve only, they must also acknowledge that their goal is not to know the Turiyam. That would be honest and perfectly OK.
    We must all be honest. In the final thesis of advaita there is no 'other' thus a relationship, devotion or service is not possible as two are needed for such. There is only one actionless brahman; none other; no jiva, no isvara, no vedas, no smriti, no material thus no relationship and no bhakti. This in itself is perfectly OK.


    as seen of Religious extremism and conversion efforts of so-called superior men of christian God. Else how can a person kill in the name of God?
    With respect to your comments on 'bakthas feel superior' and the above. Could I quote to you your own quotation, 'physician heal thyself' ? Please forgive me for doing this. But isn't it true that if all humanity followed one worldview (pick one) that there would be peace. By saying that bakthas feel superior, please take care that you yourself don't have the same feeling while expounding your worldview. However, I digress and wish not to continue on this subtopic in this thread.

    You corrected your orginal post, thanks for that.

    Take care.
    Last edited by satay; 21 November 2009 at 03:29 PM.
    satay

  9. #39
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Pranam atanu
    We must all be honest. In the final thesis of advaita there is no 'other' thus a relationship, ------

    With respect to your comments on 'bakthas feel superior' and the above. Could I quote to you your own quotation, 'physician heal thyself' ? Please forgive me for doing this. But isn't it true that if all humanity followed one worldview (pick one) that there would be peace. By saying that bakthas feel superior, please take care that you yourself don't have the same feeling while expounding your worldview. However, I digress and wish not to continue on this subtopic in this thread.
    Namaste satay

    I agree we must be honest. Regarding Advaita darshana, that is not the understanding here. Advaita Turiyam and Advaita Darshana are not the same; the former is the goal and the latter the path. Vivekachudamani in its 16th verse favours refuting counter arguments with reason. In this very thread two specific mentions were made by Shri Gupta as below:

    beyond the Karm and Gyan .
    Beyond the Karm...
    Krsn says Arjun to perform duty as Vigatajwarah or without any sorrow . What happens when Arjun could not kill Jayadrath and goes to pyre , Krsn shows the illuminating sun .
    Beyond the Gyan
    Shri Gupta also cited my name. Guptaji is respected and his views are of wisdom. But I do not know whether in this case it is wrong to exchange views civily and show from Gita that beyond knowledge is Param Shanti and not another third path:

    4.39. The man who is full of faith, who is devoted to it, and who has subdued all the senses, obtains (this) knowledge; and, having obtained the knowledge, he goes at once to the supreme peace.

    Similarly, it was pointed out to Shri Ganeshprasadji that in BG verse 11.54 the reference is to 'Undivided Devotion' and not to 'Devotional Service'?" Only in this context, the reference to Turiyam, wherein service would be untenable, came up. There was no dis-respect intended to either Ganeshprasadji or Guptaji. I may be wrong, however, in my perception.

    Take care.
    I will. Thanks.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 21 November 2009 at 11:46 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #40
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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi

    Let us get back to the discussion of the four mantras of the mANDukya upaniShad that describe the four pAdas--quarters of Atman who is Brahman. It is significant that the word pAda--quarter applies to the description in all its senses:

    • The four pAdas of Atman are like four successive, compartmental quarters (sections, rooms) of a house. The ingress and egress to the house is necessarily successive--not random, so to reach Atman the antaryAmi--indweller, the sAdhaka has to pass through the three levels of existence: waking, dreaming and deep sleep into the inner core at the turIya level.

    • The four pAdas of Atman are like the four legs of dharma personified as a cow--pashu. Atman in its manifestation as jIvAtmA moves about the world using these four legs.

    • Viewed as the four quardrants of the circle of life, the four pAdas stand distinct and separate to the Atman who is the witness. The fourth pAda--turIya is not only distinct on its own but serves to pervade and connect the other three as the immanent base of the circle--the movie screen.

    mAnDukya upanishad establishes the relationship between the Atman and Brahman, proving that they are identical, by a process of analysis and synthesis. It establishes that just like the Atman projected as an individual jIvAtmA, Brahman is projected in four pAdas in manifest creation as vaishvAnara--vishva nara--the universal man, virAT--the first manifestation through BrahmA.

    The waking state of vaishvAnara and virAT-puruSha

    Verse 3 of the mANDukya upaniShad states:

    jAgarita-sthAno bahiShpraj~jaH saptA~gga ekonaviMShati-mukhaH
    sthUlabhug-vaishvAnaraH pratama pAdaH ||3||

    • In the jAgrita-sthAna--waking state, Atman is manifest in the the waking consciousness of vaishvAnara, as jIvAtmA--the Individual Person; Brahman as the Universal Consciousness is manifest as virAT--Universal Person.

    • While jIvAtmA has the biological body of a living human, virAT has the entire universe for his body.

    • Both the jIvAtmA and virAT have saptAngga--seven limbs, which are enumerated in the muNDaka upanishad thus:

    agnirmUrdhA chakShuShI chandrasUryau
    dishaH shrotre vAgvivRutAshcha vedAH |
    vAyuH prANo hRudayaM vishvamasya
    padbhyAM pRuthivI hyeSha sarvabhUtAntarAtmA || 4||

    This seven limbs of Brahman and the Atman are:
    head
    virAT: shining regions of heaven; jIva: the sahasrAra region of brain.

    eyes
    v: moon and sun; j: eyes reflect external light and shine with own internal light.

    ears
    v: the four directions; j: the sound input from the four directions.

    speech
    v: the Vedas; j: knowledge revealed by the Vedas.

    breath
    v: the air of the cosmos; j: prANA manifest as oxygen.

    heart
    v; the entire universe; j: physical heart with potential universal love.

    feet
    v: the earth; j: the feet are grounded on the earth.

    • Both jIvAtmA and virAT 'eat' or consume--bhuk, and enjoy life in the waking state using ekonaviMShati-mukhaH--nineteen 'mouths'. While the jIvAtmA's 'mouths' are embedded in its physical and subtle bodies, virAT's 'mouths' are the collective manifestation of jIvas' organs.

    the five jnAnendriyas--senses of knowledge:
    shrotra--ears, tvak--skin, chakShus--eyes, jihva--tongue, and ghrANa--nose.

    the five karmendriyas--senses of action:
    vAk--speech, pANi--hand, pAda-feet, upastha--genitals, pAyu--anus.

    the pancha prANAs--'vital airs' involved in body functions:
    prANa--inhaled and exhaled breath, apAna--excretion of faeces and urine,
    vyAna--circulation of blood, udAna--swallowing and digestion, udAna--faculty of thought absorption.

    the antaHkaraNa chatuShTaya--fourfold psychological organ:
    manas--mind, which thinks and deliberates
    buddhi--intellect, which ratiocinates, understands and decides
    ahaMkAra--ego, which arrogates and appropriates things to itself
    chitta--memory, recollection and retention of past impressions.

    • The consciousness of the waking state is bahiShprajna--outward consciousness. In the jIvAtmA it is the aham asmi--I am, of the ahaMkAra--ego, which is under the spell of six vairi(s)--enemies: kAma--desire/passion, krodha--anger, lobha--greed, moha--infatuation/delution, mada--pride/arrogance, and mAtsarya--envy/jealousy; they arise from the jIvAtmA's vAsanas--impressions of past life, steep the jIva in mAya--delusion and avidya--ignorance and bind it to the saMsAra--course of wordly life and cyclic birth and death.

    The bahiShprajna of virAT as the Cosmic ahaMkAra is different from the limited outward consciousness of the jIvAtmA. Inasmuch everything is comprehended in the consciousness of the virAT, there are no likes and dislikes--rather they are balanced in the totality of virAT's simultaneous, universal, outward existence.

    • The knowledge of the jIvAtmA in the waking state is by sensual perception and mental cognition; virAT's knowledge is by insight and intuition. Since it is desireless, its bahiShprajna is liberated, making the virAT sarvajna, sarvagata, sarvashaktimata--omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

    More on the other three verses in the following posts, as this post is already too large to read, contemplate and discuss further.

    **********

    As a tailpiece, the very term 'vaishvAnara' is indicative of the three states of existence. A jIvAtmA is nara--human in its waking state; vAnara--monkey in the dream state, restless and jumping; and vishva--universal, whole, collective mass in the deep sleep state.
    Last edited by saidevo; 22 November 2009 at 01:41 AM.
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