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Thread: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

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    Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    There are some people who are getting confused about nirgun nirakar and sagun sakaar upasana paddhti, In 12th chapter, starting, arjun asks the god,

    Evam satatyukta ye bhaktastava partupaaste, ye chapyaksharamvyaktam tesham ke yogvittmah.

    He has got the same confusion, and god reples to him, that the one who is a yogi and meditates me in nirgun nirakar, gets to reach me, and the one who do my bhakti in sagun sakaar form, also gets to me equally, there is no difference.

    Now the point to consider is, there are 2 kinds of human nature, 1. introvert 2. extrovert, The one with introvert nature will naturally find nirgun nirakar more feasible for him/her, as his mental state will find more pleasure/belief in the god's form which is omnipresent in nature as management, as the supreme power, and on other side the one with extrovert mental state will find the sagun sakaar more to his liking. So none of the way is better or inferior, and both are same.

    Now what makes a mental state introvert and extrovert, A man with more influence of planet rahu in the 5th house of horoscopt gets extrovert, and influenced by ketu in the 5th house gets introvert, as rahu is a planet behind all communications and ketu is opposite, so this decides the mental state of a person.

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Dandavat Pranamas to all !

    All Glories to SriSri Radha Krsna !

    In this context, let me affirm my understanding that Lord also says that the upasana of unmanifested aspect of Supreme truth is also very difficult for the embodied (Jivas).

    Geeta, 12:5
    For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

    The Gyanis (persons attached to impersonal aspect) also achieve Supreme Person, but they do so after many-many births:

    Geeta, 7:19
    After many births, Gyanis attain full knowledge about ME and surrender unto ME.

    ------------------
    Your Servant.

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Namaste Krsna Das,

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    The Gyanis (persons attached to impersonal aspect) also achieve Supreme Person, but they do so after many-many births:

    Geeta, 7:19
    After many births, Gyanis attain full knowledge about ME and surrender unto ME.
    Have you read this verse ? You have twisted its original meaning to the extreme ! I think Krsna must be in great pains on your this (mis)translation. If you really consider Him your Ishta deva then please don't misquote Him. This is not fair.

    And BTW, what is written in 7.17 & 7.18 ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Dandavat Pranamas to you !

    The description about verse 7/19 was mine so there are chances of errors.
    I should have rather provided the link having complete description of the verse. It is this:

    http://www.asitis.com/7/19.html

    If you read the purport, it is mentioned ".........In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism, but when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service. Realizing this, he becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and surrenders to Him......."

    Regarding 7:17 also, Lord speaks about Gyani - here Gyani means the person having knowledge about Supreme Personality of GodHead (Bhagwad-Vishayak-Gyan / Bhagavad-Tattva) and not Brahma-Tattva.

    Regarding 7:18, same holds for this verse.

    Purports are available here:
    http://vedabase.net/bg/7/17/en
    http://vedabase.net/bg/7/18/en

    Also, the meanings I have given are in the perspective of Gaudiya Vaishnava Sidhhanta and it may not reconcile with your own Sidhhanta.

    Hare Krsna !

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Namaste Krsna Das,

    If you want to understand the way you have written, I have no issues. If you had written this in ISKCON section of this forum, I would not have objected. However, this section is for discussion on Bhagwad Gita, so we must be true to Bhagwad Gita.

    Let's see what Lord says :

    Chaturvidhaa bhajante maam janaah sukritoarjuna |
    Aarto jigyasurarthaarthi gyaani cha Bharatarshabhah || BG 7.16 ||


    Chaturvidhaa = Chatur (four) + vidhaa (types)
    bhajante = worship
    maam = me
    janaah = people
    sukritoarjuna = sukritah (who do meritorious deeds) + Arjuna
    Aarto = who is suffering & crying
    jigyasu = who is desirous of knowledge
    arthaarthi = who desire material wealth
    gyaani = Knowledgeable (those treading the path of knowledge)
    cha = and
    Bharatarshabhah = best in the lineage of Bharat

    O' the best in the lineage of Bharat, Arjuna, four types of meritorious people worship me : Those who are suffering (& want to get rid of it), those who are desirous of knowledge & knowledgeable/gyani.

    Teshaam gyaani nityayukta ekbhaktirvishishyate |
    priyo hi gyaaninoatyarthamaham sa cha mam priyah || BG 7.17||

    Teshaam = among them
    nityayukta = nitya (always) + yukta (having oneness with God)
    ekbhaktirvishishyate = ek (One) + Bhaktih (devotion) + vishishyate (is the best)
    Priyo = lovable
    gyaaninoatyarthamaham = Gyaaninah + ati (very much) + artham (for) + aham (I)
    sa = he
    mam = to me
    priyah = lovable

    Among all those types of Bhaktas, Gyaani Bhakta is the best as he is always one with me with his single pointed devotion. I am very much lovable to Gyaani & for me he is lovable to me.

    Udaaraah sarva evaite gyaani tvaatmaiva me matam |
    Aasthitah sa hi yuktaamaa maamevanuttmaam gatim || BG 7.18||

    Udaaraah = large hearted/good people
    sarva = all
    evaite = indeed
    tvaatmaiva = tu (verily) + aatma (self) + eva (indeed)
    me = my
    matam = opinion
    aasthitah = established
    sa = he
    hi = indeed
    yuktaatmaa = One with Self
    maamevanuttamaam = Maameva (to me alone) + anutamaam (best ) + gatim (way)

    All those are large hearted (good people) but in my opinion, Gyaani is verily my Self itself, because He, one with self, is established within me alone in the best way.

    Bahoonaam janmanaamante gyaanvaanmaam prapdyate |
    Vaasudevah sarvam iti sa mahaatmaa sudurlabhah || BG 7.19 ||

    Bahoonaam = Many
    Janmnaamante = janmanaam (births) + ante (at the end of)
    gyaanvaanmaam = Gyaanvaan (Gyaani) + maam (me)
    prapadyate = worships
    vaasudevah sarvam iti = This all is Vaasudeva alone
    sa = That (He)
    mahaatmaa = great soul
    sudurlabhah = difficult to find

    At the end of many births, the great soul Gyaani, who worships me (considering that) "this all is Vaasudeva alone", is difficult to find.

    This is what Lord Krishna said. I have given the meaning of words side by side.

    Now, you may take out the meaning in the manner that suits you. If you want to give a new meaning to gyaani, I have no issues. But tell me, who worships Krishna as, "This all is Vaasudva alone" ? Does Gaudiya Vaishnavaa sampradaaya teach that everything (including you, me, this world around us etc.) is Vaasudeva alone ?

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 04 January 2010 at 08:57 PM. Reason: imrpove readablity
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Dear "devotee"

    Please accept my humble obesiances at your lotus feet !

    I am not giving any response to the question you have asked (Though I can do so.)

    I am not giving any response because Sidhhantas are not same for everybody. If you are unable to reconcile my interpretation of these verses, it is correct for you to follow whatever path you are following at this moment.

    Each and every Jiva accepts a particular faith because he has acquired that kind of gunas/samskaras in his previous lives, by the effect of which he follows a particular path in his current life.

    I am following Gaidiya Vaisnava Sidhhanta because I am able to reconcile it with everything around me, and it has given answers to all of my questions.

    I have posted my understanding of these verses according to G.V. perspective, but that does not mean each and everybody reading this post must submit to it.

    All Glories to SriSri Radha Krsna !

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Namaste Krsna Das,

    I am sorry, if my post has antagonised you. I had no such intentions. I was just putting my viewpoint across.

    I agree with you ... the interpretations of Bhagwad Gita is different for different paths though I would say that the goal is the same.

    Jai Shri Krishna !

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Teshaam = among them
    nityayukta = nitya (always) + yukta (having oneness with God)
    ekbhaktirvishishyate = ek (One) + Bhaktih (devotion) + vishishyate (is the best)
    Priyo = lovable
    gyaaninoatyarthamaham = Gyaaninah + ati (very much) + artham (for) + aham (I)
    sa = he
    mam = to me
    priyah = lovable

    Among all those types of Bhaktas, Gyaani Bhakta is the best as he is always one with me with his single pointed devotion. I am very much lovable to Gyaani & for me he is lovable to me.


    OM
    NityaYukta can also mean "always connected to", "ever devoted to" etc. Yukta does not just mean "union" or oneness.


    Though the word by word translation seems to be close to good, the purport written below it doing no justice to the word by word translation. It should be connected by same word by word translation rather than extrapolations isint?

    So, shouldn't it be

    "Amount them, one who is always in union/oneness with devotion is the best. For whom, i am very much lovable and he is lovable to me"

    But, read your translation? Where from the idea of "as he is always one with me " came from? How can you say or even claim you are doing justice to BG when you do not?

    So, it is always your faith which force you to find a meaning that is suitable to you and one who wear green glass will see anything and everything as green.

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Namaste Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    NityaYukta can also mean "always connected to", "ever devoted to" etc. Yukta does not just mean "union" or oneness.
    Yukta (the root of this word is Yoga) means "joined" & also means who has attained oneness (excellence) in Yoga. Actually, Yoga itself means "connection". So what you say is right and what I said is also not off the mark.


    So, shouldn't it be

    "Amount them, one who is always in union/oneness with devotion is the best. For whom, i am very much lovable and he is lovable to me"
    Yes, agreed; but you forgot to include Gyaani in that sentence. Please include that word & then see the meaning.

    But, read your translation? Where from the idea of "as he is always one with me " came from? How can you say or even claim you are doing justice to BG when you do not?
    Yes, the words have been included from my side to make it clear & that indeed is extrapolation. However, if we say, "joined" without saying "with whom" ... will it make things clear ? As I translated nityayukta as "always in Oneness" then question does arise "with whom". How do you make it complete without supplying similar meaning words ?

    So, it is always your faith which force you to find a meaning that is suitable to you and one who wear green glass will see anything and everything as green.
    Not exactly but you are not completely wrong. You see, your translation & mine don't differ much !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Chapter 12.1 for people who are still confused about nirakar or sakar upasana

    Namaste Devotee,

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Not exactly but you are not completely wrong. You see, your translation & mine don't differ much !
    OM
    Thats exactly true but that is also the source of the differences in understanding. Missing one word, adding one additional new word and/or meaning gives a complete new dimension or even philosophy altogether.

    I know you can/should add the Janani part instead of "One Who" but since the Janani is already in context, "One who" refers to the Janani only so repetition is not required at least in purports.

    Btw, they are not my translations I am dullhead dumb who know nothing but borrowing shamelessly the philosophy and mercy of Great Souls who translated all these nice unauthored texts for us and also gave great explanations and directions along with unbiased meanings for understanding the truths. I am just copy cat'ng few.

    Hari Bol!

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