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Thread: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

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    Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Namaste,

    The roots of Advaita is in Vedanta Scriptures. So, in this part we shall discuss the important texts from chosen scriptures.

    Let’s start our journey with the Isha Upanishad. I have selected 5 verses here from 4th to 8th for discussion & let's take the first two verses, 4th & 5th first.

    I have given translation of words below as per my understanding of Sanskrit & from translations available online. However, if anyone can help in better translation & understanding of the texts, that would be very helpful.

    The verses 4 & 5 convey the characteristics of the Self.

    Anejadekam manso javiyo, nanaddeva aapnuvanpurvamarshat |
    Taddhavato anyaantyeta tishthat, tasminapo maatirashcha dadhaati || 4 ||

    Anejad = Unmoving
    Ekam = Non-dual, One
    Nanaddeva = Na (No) + Anat( other) + Deva (Indriyas, sense organs)
    Aapnuvan = reach
    Purvam = earlier
    Arshat = pierces
    Taddhaavato = tat (that) + dhaavato (runs)
    Anyaantyeta = Anya (Others) + Antyeta (??? ... couldn't find the translation, can anyone help ?)
    Tishthat = standing in one place
    Tasminapo = Tasmin api (within that itself )
    Maatirah = Air
    Dadhaati = supports


    4. (The Spirit/Self) is unmoving, one (non-dual), swifter than the mind. The senses do not reach It as It is ever ahead of them. Though Itself standing still It outstrips those who run. In It the (all-pervading) air supports the (activities of) beings.

    Tadejati tannaijati taddoore tadwantike |
    Tadantrasya sarvasya tadu sarvasyasya bahyatah || 5||


    Tat = That
    Ejati = moves
    Tannaijati = Tat + Na + ejati = That doesn’t move
    Taddoore = tat + doore (at far place) = That is far
    Tadwantike = tat + awantike = That is near
    Tadantarasya = Tat + antarsya = That is within heart of
    Sarvasya =all beings
    Tadu = tat + u = That alone
    Asya = of it
    Bahyatah = outside

    5. It moves and It moves not; It is far and It is near; It is within all this and It is also outside all this.

    ==>

    What do we gather from these two verses :

    a) The Self/Spirit is One i.e. Non-dual
    b) It is unmoving & yet swifter than the mind
    c) It is not grasped by the senses as it is always ahead of them
    d) The all pervading air is within It.
    e) It is far & yet it is near. It is within everything & also outside everything

    Now something is not clear here.

    i) How can anything be unmoving and yet swifter than mind i.e. both moving & non-moving at the same time ? So, does it say that there is actually no distance & time in reality ?
    ii) How is it swifter than mind ? Why comparison with mind is done here ? To emphasize on its speed ? But that can’t be because It is essentially non-moving !
    iii) How can it be both far & also near ? Doesn’t that mean there is actually nothing as near or far and any illusion of a distance is just an illusion ?
    iv) If it is within everything & also outside everything … then it must be everything because it must be present even in the tiniest part of any “thing” & also all that is outside that “thing”?


    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,
    The roots of Advaita is in Vedanta Scriptures. So, in this part we shall discuss the important texts from chosen scriptures.
    -----
    a) The Self/Spirit is One i.e. Non-dual
    b) It is unmoving & yet swifter than the mind
    c) It is not grasped by the senses as it is always ahead of them
    d) The all pervading air is within It.
    e) It is far & yet it is near. It is within everything & also outside everything
    Now something is not clear here.

    i) How can anything be unmoving and yet swifter than mind i.e. both moving & non-moving at the same time ? So, does it say that there is actually no distance & time in reality ?
    ii) How is it swifter than mind ? Why comparison with mind is done here ? To emphasize on its speed ? But that cant be because It is essentially non-moving !
    iii) How can it be both far & also near ? Doesnt that mean there is actually nothing as near or far and any illusion of a distance is just an illusion ?
    iv) If it is within everything & also outside everything then it must be everything because it must be present even in the tiniest part of any thing & also all that is outside that thing?

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    You bring out excellent observations. Whenever some one said "I have come here" "Or I will go now", Shri Ramana said "You have not come here and you are not going anywhere. You saw the body being transported to this place and again away. You are where you are."

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #3

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    5. It moves and It moves not; It is far and It is near; It is within all this and It is also outside all this.

    Now something is not clear here.
    As I get it:
    Brahman imagines all this, the imagination is a characteristic inherent in Brahman itself. There has never been anything "created".
    Then what is the use talking about space, distance or speed? It can only be relative terms relating to the imagination.
    That imagination being real in the sense that its Brahman who is doing the imagination. Unreal in the sense that it has no substance of its own and can not exist without Brahman.

    Viewed this way, the quotes makes much sense (at least to me).
    There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done. (sss20-15)

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    namaste everyone.

    A look at the words derived from the direct root Ish and the allied roots of the name IshA, reveal the all-inclusive nature and stature of Brahman:

    iSh--to desire, choose, seek, assent, be favourable; iShaH--one possessed of sap or strength (so the essence), the mouth; iShi or iShI--reed, rush, arrow; iShiraH--fire; iShu: an arrow; and iShudhiH--a quiver (case for holding arrows).

    Ish--rule, be master of; have power; own, belong to; IshaH--lord, master; Ishvara--powerful, capable, rich, wealthy;

    ISh--to fly away; IShat--a little; IShikA--a painter's brush

    vashIkara--making anyone subject to one's will; vashitva--freedom of will, mastery of one's self, power or dominion over, subduing by magical means.

    The four verses of IshA upaniShad that Devotee has quoted in his OP, establish the nature and characteristics of Self, juxtaposing contradictory terms:

    Verse 4: The Self is
    • anejat--unmoving (the root ejr, implies shaking); yet manaso javIyaH--(moves) faster than mind.

    • ekam--one, yet there are devAH--gods (here it means the senses), manas--mind, and mAtarishvA--wind, air.

    • tiShThat--stands motionless in one place but pervades everything (as stated in verse 1), yet stimulates apaH--activities (literally, water), tasmin--within it, by the mAtarishvA--wind, which it dachAti--supports or allots.

    Devotee, anyAn=others, as you have translated, and antyeti=overtakes (ChinmayAnanda)--(derived from atyeSh--to glide over).

    "According to ShrI Shankara, mAtarishvA refers to the individuality (jIva), and water (apaH) here means karma. Then it would mean that all activities of all individualised personalities are always within the Self."--ChinmayAnanda

    This verse uses a figure of speech (anvarthasaMjnA?) which similar to the oxymoron of the English language, where words contradictory in meaning are juxtaposed to bring out the intended effect, as this famous quote from Tennyson shows:

    "His honour rooted in dishonour stood,
    And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

    The modern analogy of the movie and the screen can help us understand the apparently dual nature of the Self.

    The movie screen is unmoving (emotionally too), but it plays moving pictures on the screen. The actions might move and shift swiftly from place to place, with the pace of the mind which is the fastest, yet the screen is already there to display the scene. The screen stands motionless, all pervading, and yet supports all actions within itself, creating the atmosphere of the scenes of action. The viewer's senses can never reach the screen, so they are aware of the action only through the mediating mind, and yet the senses perceive only because of the supporting medium of the screen. The mind can reach the screen beyond the action, but is too busy to miss all the action that is taking place.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Namaste Atanu, Ekanta & Saidevoji,

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Whenever some one said "I have come here" "Or I will go now", Shri Ramana said "You have not come here and you are not going anywhere. You saw the body being transported to this place and again away. You are where you are."
    Yes, that is a great pointer to the reality from Maharishi Ramana. Thanks for quoting that !

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekanta
    Brahman imagines all this, the imagination is a characteristic inherent in Brahman itself. There has never been anything "created".
    Then what is the use talking about space, distance or speed? It can only be relative terms relating to the imagination.
    That imagination being real in the sense that its Brahman who is doing the imagination. Unreal in the sense that it has no substance of its own and can not exist without Brahman
    That is another analogy to what the creation is. It is equated with the thought/imagination of the Thinker, the dream of the Dreamer. But yes, it cannot be said that it is unreal or unreal. And what exactly is the thought of the thinker ? Let's assume a system where there is nothing & no one except the Thinker ( as the reality is), not even space ... He alone exists ... then is not the thought of the Thinker, Thinker Himself ? Can it be anything different from the Thinker materially ... can the material source of the Thought be different from the Thinker ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saidevo
    A look at the words derived from the direct root Ish and the allied roots of the name IshA, reveal the all-inclusive nature and stature of Brahman:
    ........
    anyAn=others, as you have translated, and antyeti=overtakes (ChinmayAnanda)--(derived from atyeSh--to glide over).

    "According to ShrI Shankara, mAtarishvA refers to the individuality (jIva), and water (apaH) here means karma. Then it would mean that all activities of all individualised personalities are always within the Self."--ChinmayAnanda
    Thanks for explanation, Saidevoji ! Yes, Apo used in the verse may also point to Apah as you said and not api (as I assumed) ... on second thought, that appears to be a better translation ( as there is no need to have change in vibhakti here). Truly, who can beat Shankara in understanding the scriptures ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #6

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    I keep chanting these verses regularly, and here is an attempt at a literal translation. It is kind of amazing, how same verse can be translated in a slightly different variations.

    अनेजदेकं मनसो जवीयो नैनद्देवा आप्नुवन्पूर्वमर्षत् ।
    तद्धावतोऽन्यानत्येति तिष्ठत्तस्मिन्नपो मातरिश्वा दधाति ॥4
    अनेजत (Immovable) एकं (One) मनस: (from mind too) जवीय: (faster) न एनत (No other) देवा (god) (no) आप्रुवन (can know) पूर्वम (before )अर्षत (knowable)
    तत
    (That) धावत: (faster) अन्य (other) अन्यान (other) अति इति (crosses him) तिष्ठत (even while not moving) तस्मिन (That) अप:(rain) मात:(Vaayu) ईश्वा (gods) दधाति (complete)
    He that is Immovable and One, faster than mind, who no other god can know, who is before anything was know. Even while not moving, He overtakes those running faster, from Whom Vaayu like gods also perform rainfalls.

    तदेजति तन्नैजति तद्दूरे तद्वन्तिके ।
    तदन्तरस्य सर्वस्य तदु सर्वस्यास्य बाह्यतः ॥५॥
    तत
    (He) एजति (moves) तत (He) न एजति (does not move) तत (He) दूरे (is far) तत (He) अवंतिके (is near)
    तत
    (He) अंतरस्य (is inside) सर्वस्य (everyone) तदु सर्वस्य अस्य वाह्यत: (yet he is outside everyone)
    He moves, yet he does not move. He is far, yet he is nearby. He is inside everyone, at the same time he is outside everyone.

    As written earlier by other illustrious members, in this shloka, the essence that God is without dualism (dwandwatita) is being propagated. What are these dualisms.
    (1) Space - near and far. inside and outside. In our limited understanding these exist, but in God's dimensions, these are all folded in. He is also beyond the physical movements.
    (2) Time - I think, the comparison to mind is for this purpose. The concept of time to a large extent, is there in the mind. Depending on the mental status, time goes fast or slow. God-perception is beyond this faculty, and again this dimension if folded in his existence.

    Howeve, there is a different take on the cause and effect. These verses are saying that it is enabled by God. So, the rainfall is caused by the actions of devas (need to understand it better). It is enabled, but God does not cause it to change. The karma takes its effect, in Prakriti, laws cause certain actions, and is enabled by God Himself.
    HariH Om!
    Hare Krishna Verma

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by harekrishna View Post
    I keep chanting these verses regularly, and here is an attempt at a literal translation. It is kind of amazing, how same verse can be translated in a slightly different variations.

    अनेजदेकं मनसो जवीयो नैनद्देवा आप्नुवन्पूर्वमर्षत् ।
    तद्धावतोऽन्यानत्येति तिष्ठत्तस्मिन्नपो मातरिश्वा दधाति ॥4
    अनेजत (Immovable) एकं (One) मनस: (from mind too) जवीय: (faster) न एनत (No other) देवा (god) (no) आप्रुवन (can know) पूर्वम (before )अर्षत (knowable)
    तत
    (That) धावत: (faster) अन्य (other) अन्यान (other) अति इति (crosses him) तिष्ठत (even while not moving) तस्मिन (That) अप:(rain) मात:(Vaayu) ईश्वा (gods) दधाति (complete)
    [FONT=Mangal][SIZE=2][FONT=Mangal][SIZE=2]He that is Immovable and One, faster than mind, who no other god can know, who is before anything was know. Even while not moving, He overtakes those running faster, from Whom Vaayu like gods also perform rainfalls.
    Namaste HK,

    It is true that the Upanishadic texts have been translated in varying ways slightly (not much). Actually, the sanskrit language used in all such texts is too old & many of the words have been replaced by new more common words. Again, there are words which have many different meanings -- called paryayawaaachi words in Sanskrit. In addition to that, there is lot of changes in the forms of the words depending upon sandhi (joining of words), vibhakti used. And on the top of all these, the verses are economical in words & some words are to be supplied to understand the actual meaning of the whole context.

    So, my emphasis is to go for the literal translation first & then the figurative one to understand the verses correctly. In your translation you have translated these as :

    a) Aapnuvan : You have translated it as "can know". Imo, the literal meaning is obtain, occupy, gain, take possession of, reach etc. & figuratively it also means "know", as you know the thing once you reach it close enough.

    b) arshat : I found the literal meaning as "pierce", "perforate", "spear" etc. which again has a figurative meaning as knowing well.

    c) dhaavat = Its literal meaning is "run" for sure ... but the use of the words does indicate that "It is faster than the sense organs" & hence use of faster word is also ok.

    d) Tasmin = You have translated it as, "that" but it should be "within that ( seventh vibhakti singular number is used for "sah" i.e. he).

    e) Maatarishva = This has been translated in a new manner & that too appears to be ok. You have done the "sandhi vichheda" (breaking the joined words back to basic words) as "maatah + Ishva" (wind + God) whereas in my case it has been done as, "Maatarih + eeva" (Wind + itself). However, I found Maatarishvan translated as "wind/air" in Aurobindo's translation which I think is the best. Maatarishvan means which expands in the mother or the container (property of air to expand within the aakaashaa/space wherein it is born) ... coming from the root words of maatah (mother) and ishvan (expansion).

    However, the overall translation doesn't vary much.

    Thanks for providing a second opinion which is always helpful in understanding the things in a better way. As I said, earlier, the language used is very old & many words used at that time are not in use today. However, if we don't do such analysis, we are not sure which translation to believe & which we should not. I faced somewhat similar problem with Bhagwad Gita translation too which has been modified in one way or the other by people who translated it as per their own understanding. It is ok in most of the cases but there may be one or two critical cases when you want to know what exactly God said because you don't want any dilution of the original meaning.

    I intend to go together & understand the things with all of you.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 15 December 2009 at 11:21 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Echoes in Bhagwad Gita

    Namaste,

    Lord Krishna has been equated with the milkman, the Upanishads with the cows & Bhagwad Gita has been equated with milk which is milked by Lord Krishna. Let's see how the above wisdom echoes in Bhagwad Gita.

    Nityah sarvagatah sthaanuh achalo ayam sanaatanah | BG 2.24 ||

    Nityah = permanent (undecaying, indestructible, unchanging)
    Sarvagatah = Which is all-pervasive i.e. there is no place where it is not.
    Sthaanuh = standstill at one place
    Achalo = non-moving
    Ayam = This / It
    Sanaatanah = eternal

    Meaning ; This (Self) is permanent, all pervasive, standstill, non-moving & eternal.

    This is to be noted again that It (the Self) is non-moving and all-pervasive. When it is all-pervasive & non-moving, can it be more than one ? It must be One without a second !

    Bahirantascha bhootaanaam acharam charameva cha |
    Sukshmatvaattadavigyeyam doorashtham chaantike cha tat
    || BG 2.15 ||

    Bahirantah = (that which is) outside & inside (of all beings)
    Bhootaanaam = beings
    Acharam = non-moving things
    Charameva cha = charam (moving beings) + eva (itself) + cha (and) = & itself is the moving beings
    Sukshmatvaat = Sukshma (small, tiny, atomic, subtle) + tvaat (by virtue of ) = by virtue of its being very subtle
    Avigyeyam = which cannot be known
    Doorastham = which is at far off place
    Chaantike = cha + antike = and which is very near

    Meaning : It (the Self/Brahman) pervades both inside and outside of all beings. It itself is moving & non-moving beings. It is what is far off (from us) & It is what is the nearest.

    Lets notice that the Brahman/Self is called both moving & non-moving in the above verse. It is also said to be the farthest thing & also the nearest at the same time.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Namaste,

    Till now we have discussed 2 slokas (verses) of IshA Upanishad. Let's see what the next three verses have to offer :

    Yastu sarvaani bhootanyatmanyevanupashyati |
    Sarvabhootehsu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || 6 ||


    Yastu = Yah + Tu = He alone
    Sarvaani = all
    bhootanyatmanyevanupashyati = bhootani (beings) + atmani (self) + eva (itself/himself) + anupashyati ( sees) == sees beings as its own self
    Sarvabhooteshu = sarva (all) + bhooteshu (in beings) = in all beings
    Chaatmaanam = cha (and) + aatmaanam ( self )
    Tato = that
    na vijugupsate = doesnt hate

    6. And he who sees all beings in his own self and his own self in all beings, he does not feel any revulsion (towards anything).

    Yasminsarvaani bhootaanyatmaivabhoodwijaanatah |
    Tatra ko mohah kah shoka ekatvamanupashyate || 7 ||

    Yasminsarvaani = Yasmin (Within whom) + Sarvaani (all)
    Bhootaanyatmaivabhoodwijaantah = bhootani (beings) + aatma (self) + eva (itself/himself) + abhoot (became) + vijaanatah (knows)
    Tatra = There
    Ko = what
    Mohah = delusion/attachment
    Shoka = sorrow
    Ekatvamanupashyate = ekatvam (One-ness) + anupashyate (sees)

    7. When, to one who knows, all beings have, verily, become one with his own self, then what delusion and what sorrow can be to him who has seen the oneness?


    The next verse was the most difficult for me to understand. I tried but could not succeed in getting the exact meanings of all the words, though I got the meaning of the verses as a whole. As the roots are not clearly known, the sandhi-vicchheda is also difficult. I would appreciate if anyone can help. I have marked ??? where I am not sure.

    Sa paryagaachchhukramkaayamvranamsnaviram suddhampaapviddham |
    Kavirmanishini paribhooh swayambhuryathaatthyatorthaan vyaddhaachchhashvatibhyah samaabhyah || 8 ||

    Sa = He

    Paryagaachchhukramkaayamvranamsnaviram = Paryagaat (filling ??? ) + sukrama (radiant) + akaayam (bodiless) + avranam (invulnerable) + asnaviram (without sinews)

    Shuddhampaapviddham = Suddham (pure) + a(not)+paap(evil)+viddham(pierced) (i.e. not pierced/touched by evil)

    Kavirmanishini = Kavih (poets/knowledgeable/seer) + manishinih (thinker)
    Paribhooh = all-pervading (???)

    Swayambhuryathaatthyatorthaan = sawayambhuh (who came into being by itself, self-existent) + yathaatthyatoarthaan (?????)
    Vyaddhaachchhashvatibhyah = ???
    Samaabhyah = encompasses/covers (???)

    8. He has filled all; He is radiant, bodiless, invulnerable, devoid of sinews, pure, untouched by evil. He, the seer, thinker, all-pervading, self-existent has duly ordered the objects according to their natures from years sempiternal.


    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #10

    Re: Aham Brahmasmi -2 - Discussion on Scriptures

    Namaste

    The Advaitic Truth echoes so clearly from the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita.

    Isha Upanishad is beautiful. That 6th shloka sounds so much like Krshna's words in the Gita.

    Also, Krshna uses interchangeably , the words AtmA, Brahman' , Kshetradnya, UpadrshtA, Ishwar, SAkshi ....

    At the same time He says,
    Gita 9.18
    gatir bhartā prabhuḥ sākṣī nivāsaḥ śaraṇaḿ suhṛt prabhavaḥ pralayaḥ sthānaḿ nidhānaḿ bījam avyayam
    I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge, and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed.

    He is Vishwam, Vishnu, VAsudeva.

    I like the Kena Upanishad too, ( not to change the topic here )

    *** I hope this does not take the thread out of line ***

    How subtly it discloses that "we" are dead matter, dolls of straw without the Lord. Not a blade of grass can move without His Will, and yet He pervades all that exists, making it appear that "we" exist.

    Kena Upanishad 1.4 - 8

    I-4. That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.
    OR
    1-4. That which the speech cannot reveal, but causes the speech to flow, know that alone to be Brahman, not this that you worship here.

    I-5. That which one cannot think with the mind, that by which, they say, the mind is thought, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.
    OR
    1-5. That which mind cannot conceptualize , but by which the mind does conceptualize, know that alone to be Brahman , not this that you worship here.

    I-6. That which man does not see with the eye, that by which man sees [the activities of the eye], know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.
    OR
    1-6. That which the eye cannot see, but by which the eye does see, know that alone to be Brahman' , and not this that you worship here.

    I-7. That which man does not hear with the ear, that by which man hears [the ears hearing] , know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

    I-8. That which man does not smell with the organ of smell, that by which the organ of smell is attracted towards its objects, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.


    ------------

    And by that same note,

    I am not this eye, ear, nose, mind, intellect, thought, words(speech), opinions, ...

    I am That , Who works thru' these very instruments, which are His filters and reflectors, so they had better be polished clean (of all vikAr , vishay, vAsanA) - these filters and reflectors.

    Aham Brahmasmi

    Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
    Hari Om

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