New Member
Namaskar Lalkar Ji,
Actually I was creating one thread, and when I finished writing, I found it doubled somehow, perhaps there was some mistakes in sending information or something wrong in my side. I think the other thread will be deleted soon. Sorry for the inconvenience. I regret that.
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Namasté
Regarding faith, as I see it...
śraddhā श्रद्धा faith, unwavering faith; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness
If we looked to the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, Nārada is instructed by the great muni Sanatkumāra-ji. Nārada wishes to know Brahman in full, in his own being. Sanatkumāra-ji talks of 26 qualities. The 19th quality is śraddhā श्रद्धा faith. He says the following:
When having śraddhā श्रद्धा faith alone, one contemplates. One of no faith never contemplates. Faith therefore is to be known in detail.
Nārada says, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail.
Sanatkumāra-ji says the following:
When having steadfastness alone (niṣṭhā¹one has faith. One of no steadfastness ( lacking niṣṭhā) never has faith. The steadfast alone is endowed with faith. Steadfastness (niṣṭhā) therefore is to be known.
This quality is held in high regard. Yes, but what do you think yajvan? For me, regarding this niṣṭhā or firmness or fixity or śraddhā, I have the following firm view:
praṇām
- That Brahman is all that I see and do not see.
- That the existence of HIM (the Universal Self) permeates everything and is every thing, and I have the opportunity to experience/live that.
- That I need to go no further then my SELF to realize this.
- That one's owns sādhana, or spiritual practice is the tool to realize the truth of this Brahman. Sādhana at its root, dhana¹ धन or ‘treasure’ , is no further then me.
- Even though I make the choice to realize the SELF, it is the SELF that reveals it-SELF to it-SELF ( this can be called HIS grace).
- It is my resolve (kratu) & delight, or responsibility to set up the conditions for this to occur.
words
- niṣṭha निष्ठ intent on; grounded in; now we can look at this word niṣṭhā:
- niṣṭhā निष्ठा- firmness , steadiness , attachment , devotion , application , skill in , familiarity with , certain knowledge ; decisive.
This is rooted in sthā standing , staying , abiding , being situated in , existing or being in i.e. fixity- dhana धन- any valued object
Last edited by yajvan; 10 December 2009 at 12:10 PM.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
New Member
Originally Posted by yajvan
Namaskar Yajvan Ji,
Thank you for your enlightening post. Now I can see the answers to my questions, thank you again.
aum Sri GaNeSAya namah.
Pranam Yajvan, Kshama and all
Faith and knowledge goes hand in hand
Lord Krishna confirm this in Gita
sraddhaval labhate jnanam
tat-parah samyatendriyah
jnanam labdhva param santim
acirenadhigacchati
ajnas casraddadhanas ca
samsayatma vinasyati
nayam loko 'sti na paro
na sukham samsayatmanah
The one who has faith, and is sincere, and has mastery over the senses, gains this knowledge. Having gained this, one at once attains the supreme peace. (4.39)
But the ignorant, who has no faith and is full of doubt (about the Self), perishes. There is neither this world nor the world beyond nor happiness for the one who doubts. (4.40)
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Namasté Ganeshprasad,
Yes, I agree. Just by nārada's words, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail, he demonstrates this.
His desire to know and his desire to apply it as śraddhā is keenly offered.
praṇām
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
New Member
Namaste kshama ji,
It's Karma. I personally think god gives merit to one's karma above all other qualities including bhakti and knowledge, and bhakti associated with righteous karma is only pure bhakti. In last few verses of isha upanishad, we see a man on his deathbed,he remembers the good karma he did all his life, and silently prays to lord aditya to bless him with moksha, his acquired good karma sends him to immortal state forever.we see ravana was very knowledgeable, but ultimately his bhakti failed against the truth of shri ram.
Personally I know for myself, every moment I fail in my responsibility and stray from dharma, I do get a feeling I am impure and my bhakti itself is impure originating by taking liberty on the great compassion of God.
Having a feeling of self resurrection if we stray from dharma and constantly seeking the true light of god, can be the way.
Here is a nice story on dharma, bhatkti and karma -
In the region named Jambudvipa, there used to rule a king named Shatanika. He was the best among warriors. But he was also very religious. He donated alms and treated his guests well. Every day, the brahmanas received gold and clothes from Shatanika. When Shatanika died, his son Sahasranika became king.
Sahasranika also ruled well and righteously. But he did not donate as much of alms to the brahmanas as his father used to. They took their complaint to the king and said, You do not give as much of alms to us as your father used to. Many brahmanas have already left your kingdom. So will the others, unless you increase the alms you give us.
I have indeed heard that the donation of alms to brahmanas brings punya, replied Sahasranika. I have also heard that all this punya takes one to heaven after death, until the time one has to be born again. Since my father accumulated all this punya by donating alms to brahmanas, he must be in heaven. You are all learned brahmanas. Why dont you tell me where my father is right now?
The brahmanas could not reply. They had no idea where Shatanika was. But later on, they met a learned sage named Bhargava. Bhargava was so powerful that the brahmanas were sure that he would be able to tell where Shatinika was. They begged Bhargava to help them. Bharagava was not very interested in helping the brahmanas. He was busy meditating and had no desire to waste his time on idle pursuits like finding out where dead people now were. But the brahmanas kept begging him and Bhargava eventually agreed.
The sun god himself led the way and, following the sun god, Bhargava went all the way to Yamas abode. It was a long distance away.
The sun god led Bhargava straight to where the twenty-eight crores of narakas (hells) were. The wailings of sinners who were being tortured could be heard. Before they could go any further, their way was barred by a brahmana.
Bhargava, said the brahmana, You owe me a coin for services rendered. You have not paid this and I am dead. Pay me the coin and only then can you proceed further.
I am not carrying any coins on me, replied Bhargava. When I return home, I will collect a coin and bring it back to you. Now let me move forward.
Nonsense, said the brahmana. This is hell. Here payments are strictly on a cash basis. There is no question of paying up later. Pay or you shall not proceed. If you do not have any coins, why then , pay me one-sixth of all the punya that you have earned through your mediations.
Bhargava paid what was asked for and edged forward. He was successively stopped by a cowherd, a washerman, a tailor, a priest and a builder. To each of them Bhargava owed some money and they would not let him go until the debts were cleared. In each case, Bhargava parted with one-sixth of his punya so that he was left with none at all.
When these accounts were settled, the sun god led Bhargava to the hell where Shatanika was. Bhargava was bewildered to find such a righteous king as Shatanika in a hell. The king was hung upside down in a pot and was being boiled in oil.
Bhargava asked Shatanika, What is all this? Why are you in hell? You had accumulated a lot of punya through your righteous deeds.
Not really, replied the king. I did donate a lot of alms, especially to brahmanas. But all the money for the alms came from taxing my subjects severely. So it brought no punya at all. Go and tell my son that punya is best acquired by associating with righteous people
The story is from shiv mahapuran and tells a lot.
When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)
New Member
Namaskar Isavasya Ji,
Thank you for your answers. The story made me think deep. Thank you again.
bhaktar
Vanakkam Ganeshprasad:
But what is this knowledge you refer to? I think I understand it as the knowledge of the Divine, the Self, but I am not sure.
A quote that stuck with me: "Wisdom is the application of knowledge."
Hopefully that is what you mean.
Aum Namasivaya
aum Sri GaNeSAya namah.
Pranam Eastern Mind
Yes
Pretty much.
Lord Krishna says verily there nothing more purifying then knowledge but I believe it is faith(bhakti) that would finally take us across.
I like your quote.A quote that stuck with me: "Wisdom is the application of knowledge."
Hopefully that is what you mean.
Aum Namasivaya
i hope you dont mind me saying, knowledge culminates in Bhakti or devotion or worship.
i also like this
Chapter Ten Chankya Pandit
1. One destitute of wealth is not destitute, he is indeed rich (if he is learned); but the man devoid of learning is destitute in every way.
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
Member
Namaste Ganeshprasadji,
The following is for your consideration and not for argument sake.
Irrespective of scripture, I will try to put forth a few logical points. It is true that without Bhakti, attaining God is not possible. Yet there may be a strong bhakta who has only a partial view of God.Satapatha Brahamana
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.
Suppose, KRSNA is all attractive. Now that cannot mean that KRSNA will be attractive to Hindus but not to Christians. So, KRSNA is that which must be attractive to all. Suppose God is auspicious. So, He cannot be auspicious to my group alone. Suppose God is Vishnu, one who has enetered the world. So, He cannot be the one who has only entered in some places and not others. He is Isha and protector cannot mean that the protector will protect only me and my group etc.
Teaching after teaching in our scriptures state that Devas failed till they comprehended the fullness of Prajapati. Even bhakti will require intelligent discrimination, else bhakti may go towards a wrong goal.
The following episode of Indra will indicate why it is required to understand the significance of 101 years of enquiry into sacred knowledge.
Note the insistence of Indra to obtain the knowledge of the imperishable Self. Regarding the 101 years of sacred enquiry, the Satapatha says the following:Chandogya U.
VIII-vii-1: The Atman which is free from evil, free from old age, free from death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst, whose desire is of the truth, whose resolve is of the truth, he should be sought, him one should desire to understand. He who has found out and who understands that Atman attains all the worlds and all the desires. Thus spoke Prajapati.
VIII-vii-2: Both the gods and the demons heard this and said, Well, let us seek that Atman by seeking which one attains all the worlds and all the desires. Then Indra alone from among the gods went out and so did Virochana from among the demons. Then without communicating with each other, they both came into the presence of Prajapati, fuel in hand.
VIII-vii-3: For thirty-two years they lived there the disciplined life of a celibate student of sacred knowledge. Then Prajapati asked them, Desiring what have you been living ? They replied, The Atman which is free from evil, free from old age, free from death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst, whose desire is of the truth, whose resolve is of the truth, he should be sought, him one should desire to understand. He who has found out and who understands that Atman attain all the worlds and all the desires these are known to be the words of your revered self. Desiring that Atman we have been living.
VIII-vii-4: Prajapati said to them, The person which is seen in the eye is the Atman. He added, This is the immortal, the fearless. This is Brahman. But, revered sir, he who is perceived in water and he who in a mirror, which of these is the Atman ? It is he himself that is perceived in all these, replied Prajapati.
VIII-viii-1: Look at yourself in a pan of water and whatever you do not understand of the Atman, tell me that. Then they looked in a pan of water. Prajapati asked them, What do you see ? They replied, Revered sir, we both see the self entirely as we are, the very image, even to the very hairs and nails.
VIII-viii-2: Then Prajapati said to them, Having become well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, look into the pan of water. They too, having become well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, looked into the pan of water. Then Prajapati asked them, What do you see ?
VIII-viii-3: They replied, Just as we are ourselves, revered sir, well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, even so are both these, revered sir, well adorned, well dressed and well groomed. This is the Atman, said he, this is the immortal, the fearless. This is Brahman. They both went away satisfied in their hearts.
VIII-viii-4: Then Prajapati looked at them and said, They are going away without having perceived, without having understood the Atman. Whosoever will follow such a doctrine be they gods or demons, they will be foiled. Now, Virochana, satisfied in his heart, went to the demons and declared this doctrine to them. Here the (bodily) self alone is to be worshipped, the self is to be attended upon. Here it is only by worshipping the self and attending upon the self that one obtains both the worlds, this as well as the yonder.
VIII-viii-5: Therefore, even to this day, here people say of one who is not a giver, who has no faith, who does not perform sacrifices, Oh, he is a demon; for this is the doctrine of the demons. They adorn the body of the deceased with enjoyable things, clothes and ornaments for, by this, they think, they will win the other world.
VIII-ix-1: But Indra, even before reaching the gods, saw this difficulty: Just as this (reflected self) becomes well adorned when this body is well adorned, well dressed when the body is well dressed, well groomed when the body is well groomed, even so this (reflected self) also becomes blind when the body is blind, one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, crippled when the body is crippled, and it perishes when this body perishes. I see no good in this.
VIII-ix-2: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart, along with Virochana ? Indra replied, Revered sir, just as this (reflected self) becomes well adorned when this body is well adorned, well dressed when the body is well dressed, well groomed when the body is well groomed, even so this (reflected self) also becomes blind when the body is blind, one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, crippled when the body is crippled, and it perishes when this body perishes. I see no good in this.
VIII-ix-3: So is it indeed, O Indra, said Prajapati; However, I shall explain this further to you. Live here for another thirty-two years. He lived there for another thirty-two years. Then Prajapati said to him:
VIII-x-1-2: Prajapati said, He who moves about in dreams, he is the Atman. He is the immortal, the fearless. He is Brahman. Indra went away satisfied in his heart. But even before reaching the gods he saw this difficulty: Even though this (dream-self) is not blind when this body is blind, nor one-eyed when the body is slain, nor has running nose and eyes when the body has running nose and eyes, yet it is as if they kill it, as if they chase it, it becomes conscious of pain, as it were, and even weeps, as it were. I see no good in this.
VIII-x-3-4: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart ? He replied, Revered sir, even though this self is not blind when this body is blind, nor one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, nor suffers defects from the defects of the body, nor is slain when the body is slain, nor has running nose and eyes, yet it is as if they kill it, as if they chase it, it becomes conscious of pain as it were, and even weeps, as it were. I see no good in this. So is it indeed, O Indra, said Prajapati; However, I shall explain this further to you. Live here for another thirty-two years. He lived there for another thirty-two years. Then Prajapati said to him:
VIII-xi-1: Prajapati said, He who is fully asleep, composed, serene and knows no dream, he is the Atman. He is the immortal, the fearless. He is Brahman. Indra went away satisfied in his heart. But even before reaching the gods he saw this difficulty: In truth this one does not know himself now as "I am he", nor indeed these beings. It seems as if he has gone to annihilation. I see no good in this.
VIII-xi-2: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart ? He replied, Revered sir, in truth this one does not know himself as "I am he", nor indeed these beings. It seems as if he has gone to annihilation. I see no good in this.
VIII-xi-3: So is it indeed, O Indra, said Prajapati; However, I shall explain this further to you and none other than this. Live here for another five years. He lived there for another five years. That makes one hundred and one years and so with regard to that, people say thus, Verily, for one hundred and one years Indra lived with Prajapati the disciplined life of a celibate student of sacred knowledge". Then Prajapati said to him:
VIII-xii-1: O Indra, mortal indeed is this body, held by death. But it is the support of this deathless, bodiless Atman. Verily, the embodied self is held by pleasure and pain. Surely, there is no cessation of pleasure and pain for one who is embodied. But pleasure and pain do not indeed touch one who is bodiless.
But that is not to lower the value of a devotion, as:13:2:1:6
--- But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:
Svet. U.
V-14: That Supreme Divinity who created both Life and Matter, who is the source of all arts and sciences, who can be intuited by a pure and devoted mind realizing Him, the blissful the incorporeal and the nameless, one is freed from further embodiment.IMO, Fervent devotion without application of Buddhi or application of Buddhi without any devotion to the Goal are both incomplete.
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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