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Thread: Blind faith or Bhakti.

  1. #21
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    once , when swami vivekananda was criticising ' blind faith ' sri ramakrishna retorted back , "Faith is always blind. Has faith an 'eye' ? Why say `blind faith'? Either simply say `faith' or say `Jnana' [knowledge]. If it is not blind it is not proper faith atall "

  2. #22
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    once , when swami vivekananda was criticising ' blind faith ' sri ramakrishna retorted back , "Faith is always blind. Has faith an 'eye' ? Why say `blind faith'? Either simply say `faith' or say `Jnana' [knowledge]. If it is not blind it is not proper faith atall "
    Respected Sambya Ji,

    Thank you for your reply. Few weeks ago, a lot of pondering abt this topic made me contact few of my spiritual acquaintances. Your reply above was the same answer given to me by a Tamil spiritualist. He said to me, faith is blind, and in bhakti too there is blind faith. As I do not have much wisdom like you or blessed members here, I was a bit stunned by the gentleman's remarks.

    Perhaps bhakti is hard to understand, as there is no yardstick to measure it and what to say view it. Thank you again.

  3. #23
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    atanu offers,
    Satapatha Brahamana
    10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished

    ganeshprasad offers,

    Lord Krishna say’s verily there nothing more purifying then knowledge


    Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?


    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?
    praṇām
    Namaste Yajvanji,

    To me the most precise answer is:

    .. kenopanishhadi dvitiiyaH khaNDaH ..
    pratibodhaviditaM matamamR^itatvaM hi vindate .
    aatmanaa vindate viiryaM vidyayaa vindate.amR^itam.h .. 4..

    Atman is true viiryaM. Atman Vidya is amritam. Else:

    iha chedavediidatha satyamasti
    na chedihaavediinmahatii vinashhTiH .
    bhuuteshhu bhuuteshhu vichitya dhiiraaH
    pretyaasmaallokaadamR^itaa bhavanti .. 5..

    II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #25
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté
    .. kenopanishhadi dvitiiyaH khaNDaH ..
    pratibodhaviditaM matamamR^itatvaM hi vindate .
    aatmanaa vindate viiryaM vidyayaa vindate.amR^itam.h .. 4..

    Atman is true viiryaM. Atman Vidya is amritam. Else:

    iha chedavediidatha satyamasti
    na chedihaavediinmahatii vinashhTiH .
    bhuuteshhu bhuuteshhu vichitya dhiiraaH
    pretyaasmaallokaadamR^itaa bhavanti .. 5..

    II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.
    Om Namah Shivaya
    atanu quotes from the kena upaniṣad, dvitīya khaṇḍa ( 2nd section);
    Kena means 'by what?' ' by whom?' , 'how, why?' . It is the first word that is found in this upaniṣad 'kena' after the invocation (śāntipāthaḥ). The first line of this upaniṣad asks, Who impels the mind to alight on its objects?.

    the 4th śloka
    Brahman is known well (pratibodha+vidita) when it is known as the witness of every state of consciousness, because ( by this knowledge) he attains immortality. By his Self he attains strength, and by knowledge , imortality.
    • pratibodha is awakening, knowledge + vidita is learnt , perceived , known as 'let it be known by you' - a key word for this śloka.
    This imortality is not the notion of the body living forever but of the Self that is 'forever'.

    Yet this śloka ( and the greater part of the kena upaniṣad) suggests Brahman Is knowledge itself, pure knowledge.

    Hence atanu offers the perfect answer to my question:
    Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by?

    And atanu puts icing on the cake with the 5th śloka: ( I use a slightly different translation so it aligns with the 4th śloka just offered):

    If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the distruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification&#185 and become immortal.

    atanu has answered my question fully.

    praṇām

    1. for those that wish to go deeper into this idea, see HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #26

    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by kshama View Post
    Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

    This is another topic that I was thinking for such a long time. There should be a perfect definition of bhakti and blind faith.

    1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?
    2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?
    3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?

    Yours answers, thoughts and opinions are welcomed. Thank you.
    In 21st century there is nothing to be followed blindly, everybody follows technology which is governed by scientific principles , but the pleasures attained are perishable and above all this body is perishable , therefore the fruit of human life is attaining spiritual knowledge and to know about the almighty is devotion , which only gyani can feel and the source of bhakti is bhajan of the parmatma .Gita says….

    Matkarmakrinmatparamo madbhaktah sangavarjitah;
    Nirvairah sarvabhooteshu yah sa maameti paandava.
    He who does all actions for Me, who looks upon Me as the Supreme, who is devoted to
    Me, who is free from attachment, who bears enmity towards no creature, he comes to Me, O
    Arjuna!
    COMMENTARY: This is the essence of the whole teaching of the Gita. He who practises
    this teaching attains supreme bliss and immortality. Such a one realises Him and enters into His
    Being, becoming completely one with Him. This verse contains the summary of the entire Gita
    philosophy.

    Ramcharitmanas says…

    The path of wisdom is like the edge of a sword : one is apt to fall from it very soon
    . He alone who successfully treads it attains to the supreme state of
    final emancipation. But this supreme state of final beatitude is most difficult to attain, so
    declare the saints as well as the Puranas, Vedas and agamas and nigamas. By worshipping
    parmatma, the almighty the same beatitude comes unsolicited even against our will. Water
    cannot stay except on land notwithstanding our best efforts; even so, mark you,
    the joy of final beatitude cannot stay apart from Devotion to almighty.
    Realizing this, the wise devotees of Har or Hari spurn final emancipation and remain
    enamoured of Devotion. By practising Devotion ignorance, which is the root of
    metempsychosis, is eradicated without any effort or exertion, in the same way as we eat
    for our own gratification but the gastric fire digests the food so eaten (without any effort
    on our part). What BLIND is there who does not welcome such Devotion to Har or Hari, which
    is so easy and delightful at the same time?
    Sooner shall butter be churned out of water or oil be extracted from sand than the
    ocean of worldly existence be crossed without adoring PARMATMA : this is a conclusion
    which cannot be set aside. The Lord can exalt a mosquito to the position of Brahm
    and degrade Brahm. to a position lower than that of a mosquito. Realizing this,
    the wise discard all doubt and worship TO ALMIGHTY .

  7. #27
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté kd gupta,

    Wise words are offered here:

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    Ramcharitmanas says…

    The path of wisdom is like the edge of a sword : one is apt to fall from it very soon
    . He alone who successfully treads it attains to the supreme state of
    final emancipation. But this supreme state of final beatitude is most difficult to attain, so
    declare the saints as well as the Puranas, Vedas and agamas and nigamas..
    We also find the same in the kahopaniad ( 1.3.14)

    Svāmi śivānanda translates it thusly:
    Arise, awake, having reached the great (teachers) learn ( realize atman). Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, difficult to cross and hard to tread - thus the wise say.


    Svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad says it slightly differently:
    Arise! Awake ! Approach the best of masters, do get enlightened.
    Difficult to cross and heard to tread like a razor's sharpened edge, is that path; so the wise proclaim.

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #28
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Pranam Yajvan and all

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    atanu offers,

    ganeshprasad offers,



    Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?


    praṇām
    No knowledge is ever lost on us, weather it will help purify anyone will depend on the lesson learnt and its application, only if someone thought this was the end of knowledge then the answers is emphatic no. knowledge of any kind is a remover of ignorance of a particular field. Let me elaborate a bit more putting 2 and 2 together gives me the ability discern complex subject matter. For instance biggest ignorance I can think off is who am I, where do I come from and where will I go.
    Since I am asking question who am I can safely deduct I am not this body because it keeps changing from boyhood to Youngman to old age yet within it I remain the same who is it never mind where it come from where would it go? The journey is long destination unknown , now we know the journey between new York and Deli and if we decide to go, there is lot of arrangements to make, hard work and lots of money. Little wonder when the journey is long, destination is vague or clouded in uncertainty is compared to be walking on double edged sword, any moment we can be pulled back by the promise of material enjoyment which is tangible and here, yet by power of discerning I know it ends in pain and it is temporary, this is the value of 2 and 2.

    Having said this Lord Krishna say in Gita

    raja-vidya raja-guhyam
    pavitram idam uttamam
    pratyaksavagamam dharmyam
    su-sukham kartum avyayam

    This knowledge is the king of all knowledge, is the most secret, is very sacred, it can be perceived by instinct, conforms to Dharma, is very easy to practice, and is imperishable. (9.02)

    asraddadhanah purusa
    dharmasyasya parantapa
    aprapya mam nivartante
    mrtyu-samsara-vartmani

    O Arjuna, those who have no faith in this knowledge follow the cycle of birth and death without attaining Me. (9.03)

    Here lord Krishna is giving us the importance of knowledge and faith, both which is required.

    He says why and how people worship in various ways but what is this secret knowledge?

    Krishna repeats this in chapter 18 also

    Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, worship Me, and bow down to Me. Thus uniting yourself with Me, and setting Me as the supreme goal and sole refuge, you shall certainly realize (or come to) Me. (9.34)

    Hear again My supreme word, the most secret of all. You are very dear to Me, therefore, I shall tell this for your benefit. (18.64)

    Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, offer service to Me, bow down to Me, and you shall certainly reach Me. I promise you because you are very dear to Me. (18.65)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  9. #29
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté Ganeshprasad,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    No knowledge is ever lost on us, weather it will help purify anyone will depend on the lesson learnt and its application, only if someone thought this was the end of knowledge then the answers is emphatic no. knowledge of any kind is a remover of ignorance of a particular field.
    You have offered much to think about - thank you. And this has stimulated some thinking on my part to ask a few ideas ( again to ponder some ideas and implications - not to look for any hole in one's POV or contest any issue or promote one view over another).

    Let me ask your opinion on this matter then. What if the information/knowledge a person receives is incorrect? That is, it 'freed' one from some limitation, yet that knowledge was just not right. What then? Does this then qualify as knowledge?

    Let me give you an example in science. For years it has been the conviction of science that the universe is slowing down. That at some point it will reach a point of equilibrium, then reverse the process and collapse back onto itself.

    We find out that, in fact this is absolutely wrong, and the universe is expanding, and going faster in this expansion day-by-day.

    What of all those that died previous to this knowledge ( scientists that is) ? They used this as a axiom of truth, yet it was not so.

    It seems to me limited knowledge brings limited action and limited results. Yet full knowledge brings full action and purifies accordingly.
    This ( for me) I see as the knowledge of brahman and direct experience of it - it is purifying naturally because it is without limitation. This is what I believe the kena upaniṣad is suggesting.
    If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the destruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification&#185 and become immortal.
    The 'true end' of all knowledge is realized - total fullness of brahman. My teacher would say again and again - knowledge is for action, action for achievement and achievement brings fulfillment. But fulfillment of what? Fullness of Being ( sattā ). Anything less is fine, yet not fully satisfying to this mind of ours yearning for expansion (ātata).

    Do you have any thoughts on this POV offered or a different perspective?

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #30
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Pranam Yajvan

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté Ganeshprasad,



    Let me ask your opinion on this matter then. What if the information/knowledge a person receives is incorrect? That is, it 'freed' one from some limitation, yet that knowledge was just not right. What then? Does this then qualify as knowledge?
    Yes because through that knowledge one does not make the same mistake again.

    Do we not say neti neti, science in their own way are discovering their neti neti.

    Let me give you an example in science. For years it has been the conviction of science that the universe is slowing down. That at some point it will reach a point of equilibrium, then reverse the process and collapse back onto itself.
    We find out that, in fact this is absolutely wrong, and the universe is expanding, and going faster in this expansion day-by-day.
    Let me state another example, Christopher Columbus set out discover India going west, had he carried on he would have eventually reached India, I think I should stop here before I contradict my self. I am in no way promoting material knowledge but only driving a point, so as not to go down the wrong route, these knowledge is only important to a degree.

    This ( for me) I see as the knowledge of brahman and direct experience of it - it is purifying naturally because it is without limitation. This is what I believe the kena upaniṣad is suggesting.
    Quote:
    If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the destruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification¹) and become immortal.

    The 'true end' of all knowledge is realized - total fullness of brahman. My teacher would say again and again - knowledge is for action, action for achievement and achievement brings fulfillment. But fulfillment of what? Fullness of Being ( sattā ). Anything less is fine, yet not fully satisfying to this mind of ours yearning for expansion (ātata).
    Do you have any thoughts on this POV offered or a different perspective?
     
    It would be hard to argue any different, our perspective may only differ on our approach to realise this supreme truth.

    What does Lord Krishna says upon realisation of Brahman

    Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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