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Thread: Blind faith or Bhakti.

  1. #61

    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    only one question to be asked, would the Gopies substitute Lord Krishna for some abstract formless entity.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    1. Thank You for making me contemplate.

    2. Now i know why the Gopis were better off in seperation of Krshna.
    This is also explained by Krshna during reunion with the Gopis at Kurukshetra (? solar eclipse) after many yrs, as Dwarkadheesh. "I pervade all, and am always with you". Something they could not appreciate when Krshna was in front of them in Gokul-Vrndavan.

    3. The BhAgvat is more esoteric than it seems. Krshna is not just a dark cowherd lad , Gopis are not adolescent girls. They don't physically run into the woods on hearing His flute (of the Anhat sound - Shabda Brahman). Their minds and AtmA do. That is why their parents or husbands think they are home.
    Its about the circle of AtmA finding its centre , ParamAtmA. Someone else will shed better light on this.

    4. The answer to yr qn is evident in the Bhagavad Gita , if the sanskrt is read carefully.

    5. In addition, VishnusahasranAma ( Thousand Names of Vishnu - Padma Purana) gives all clues.
    ( Guruji points out that the first word in VishnusahasranAma is Vishwam. He is Vishwam (Universe) , and the One who pervades it entirely, hence Vishnu. )

    Translation by Swami Krshnanada.
    http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/vishnu/vishnu_1.html

    Here are only some of His beautiful names.

    Vishvam: The all or the Universe. 

    Vishnu: He who pervades every thing.

    Bhuta-bhavya-bhavat-prabhuh: The one who is the master and beyond the past, present and the future.

    Bhutakrud: The creator and destroyer of all existences in the universe.

    Bhutabhrud: One who supports or sustains or governs the universe.

    Bhava: Pure existence.
    Bhutatma: The essence of all beings.
Bhuta-bhavanah: He who originates and develops all Elements.
    Putatma: One whose nature is purity/who is purity

    Paramatma: He who is the supreme one and the Atman.
    Muktanam parama gatih: The highest goal of the liberated ones.

    Avyayah: One for whom there is no decay.

    Purusha: One who abides in the body or pura.

    Sakshi: One who witnesses everything

    Kshetraj'na: The knower of the field or body.

    Akshara: He who is without destruction.
    Yoga: One attainable through Yoga.

    Purushottamah: The greatest among all Purushas.
    sarvah: The omniscient source of all existence.

    Sivah: One pure.

    Sthanu: One who is steady, immovable and changeless.

    Bhutadi: Source of all elements or existing things.

    Brahma: One who creates everything as the creator Brahma.


    Brahman: Being big expanding, the Lord who is known from indications like Satya (Truth), is called Brahman. Or Brahma is Truth, Knowledge and Infinity!


    Svayambhuh: One who exists by Himself, uncaused by any other.

    Shambhu: One who bestows happiness on devotees.

    Aditya: The golden-hued person in the sun's orb.

    Mahasvanah: One from whom comes the great sound - the Veda.

    Anandi-nidhana: The one existence that has neither birth nor death.


    Dhata: One who is the support of the universe.

    Vidhata: He who generates Karmas and their fruits.

    Dhaturuttamah: The ultimate support of every thing.
    Aprameya: One who is not measurable or understandable by any of the accepted means of knowledge like sense, perception, inference etc.

    Hrishikesah: The master of the senses or He under whose control the senses subsist.

    Padma-nabha: He in whose navel (nabhi) the lotus (padma), the source of the universe, stands.

    Amara-prabhuh: The master of Amaras or the deathless ones, i.e. the Devas.

    Visvakarma: He whose Karma (work) has resulted in all that exists (Vishvam) or He whose power of creation is unique and wonderful.

    Manu: He who thinks.

    Stvashta: He who makes all beings shrunken (Tanukarana) at the time of cosmic dissolution.

    Sthavishtah: He who excels in everything in bulk or substantiality.

    Sthaviro-dhruvah: Eternal One, being the most ancient. It is taken as a single phrase, the name along with its qualification.


    ....... it goes on .........
    Its wonderful to meditate on these names.

    ============

    5. Gopis may think -

    OF [belong to ] Krshna
    made BY Krshna
    live FOR Krshna
    walk INTO the heart of Krshna
    fill the heart WITH Krshna
    make Pradakshina (circumbulation) AROUND Krshna
    hand self OVER TO Krshna
    EAT food = PUrna-Brahman' = KRshna
    DRINK dravya (liquid) = Krshna
    sleep IN the bed of Supersoul = Krshna (shushupti - deep sleep)
    think ABOUT Krshna (jagrat - waking)
    dream ABOUT Krshna (swapna - dream state)
    meditate in trance ON Krshna (turya - consciousness)

    ShyAm VyAkran (grammar)
    ShyAm Sangeet (music)
    ShyAm KavitA (poetry)
    .....


    6.
    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    “Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.
    Last edited by smaranam; 21 December 2009 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Removed Sanskrt suffixes on base names - VishnusahasranAma
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #62
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Pranam Smaranam ji

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    1. Thank You for making me contemplate.

    .
    I am glad to be of any help but I cant fail to notice instead of answering the question you have put your advaita glasses and seen everything in that light, that is fine after all we are blinded by our own kind of love for that supreme.

    2. Now i know why the Gopis were better off in seperation of Krshna.
    This is also explained by Krshna during reunion with the Gopis at Kurukshetra (? solar eclipse) after many yrs, as Dwarkadheesh. "I pervade all, and am always with you". Something they could not appreciate when Krshna was in front of them in Gokul-Vrndavan.
    Lets not speculate, we are not capable or at least I am not able comprehend that sweet love they held for their Makhan chor.

    3. The BhAgvat is more esoteric than it seems. Krshna is not just a dark cowherd lad , Gopis are not adolescent girls. They don't physically run into the woods on hearing His flute (of the Anhat sound - Shabda Brahman). Their minds and AtmA do. That is why their parents or husbands think they are home.
    Its about the circle of AtmA finding its centre , ParamAtmA. Someone else will shed better light on this.
    Here I am afraid we part company, I can not reduce the Rasa lila as a mere metaphor.
    What was the need of great sages to take birth as Gopis as you quoted
    Who were the Gopis ?
    - Personified Vedas
    - Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
    - Dev Kanyas et. All


    These were the Brahm Jnanis who chose to take part in Rasa Lial, I rest my case.
     
     
     
     
     
    4. The answer to yr qn is evident in the Bhagavad Gita , if the sanskrt is read carefully.
    Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person
    TEXT 3-4
    na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
    nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
    asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
    asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

    tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
    yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
    tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
    yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

    Just contemplate no need to speculate or translation or comentry
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 27 December 2009 at 08:28 AM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  3. #63

    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Pranam GaneshPrasad ji

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    you have put your advaita glasses and seen everything in that light, that is fine after all we are blinded by our own kind of love for that supreme.
    Yes, indeed! Blinded by the brightness of knowledge and basking in the warmth of love , that radiate from the heart of that Infinite One. Brightness and warmth cannot be seperated out.
    But your kind of love for the Supreme is very nice too


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Lets not speculate, we are not capable or at least I am not able comprehend that sweet love they held for their Makhan chor.
    That is not my speculation, but its given in either the BhAgvat itself or someone's commentary/purport , that Gopis could not appreciate the philosophical side of Krshna when He was present. They loved Him like no other, played with Him, teased Him, called Him names, as a dear childhood friend. Hence, in seperation they were in rapt Samadhi of that Divine. At least Radharani was.
    Till recently, i would shudder at the idea of viraha-bhakti but it can be understood in philosophical terms, no less.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Here I am afraid we part company, I can not reduce the Rasa lila as a mere metaphor.
    What was the need of great sages to take birth as Gopis as you quoted
    Who were the Gopis ?
    - Personified Vedas
    - Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
    - Dev Kanyas et. All


    These were the Brahm Jnanis who chose to take part in Rasa Lial, I rest my case.
    The RAs Leela is not a metaphor, but its about the Gopis' minds and AtmA.
    The RAs went on forever, and one night of RAs was Lord BrahmA's night (thousands or yrs) and not earth-night of 8 hrs. The RAs is eternal.

    This can happen with AtmA or subtle bodies not gross.

    ( Srshti ke kan kan me iska AbhAs hai, yahi MahArAsa hai )
     
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person
    TEXT 3-4
    na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
    nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
    asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
    asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

    tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
    yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
    tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
    yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

    Just contemplate no need to speculate or translation or comentry
    Jai Shree Krishna
    And surrender (sharaNAgati) to that Adya Purusha takes different forms, can mean different things to different people - as prearranged by the Divine.


    Our conversation only confirms that there are various ways to the Divine.
    It was nice talking to you.
    I get the feeling you were trying to warn me against 'being blinded by advaita' and for that I thank you for taking the time and effort, as a friend would do that.

    Jai Sri Krshna
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #64

    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste guptaji,

    And how do you suppose the single-minded devotion arise in wordly minded like us -- who despite all verbal claims are not single minded? Can single minded concentration-devotion arise without discrimination between sat and asat?

    “Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

    I hope that people will see the difference between blind faith and true bhakti.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanuji

    Your decent post may not be missed , misunderstood , I am afraid of .

    Goswamiji hints….
    Ram bhalu kapi katak batora , setu hetu shram kin na thora .
    Naam let bhavsindhu sukhanhi …..

    How that Rama can be the Parabrahma ?
    Vedas say Vishnu has done a great effort to cross three lokas , so how can he be the considered as a super soul ?

    Vedas again say …

    He who was before everything , created everything incl. Vishnu rudra rama krsn , and
    Yashchidapo…..Kasme devay….vidhem . rig.10th mandalam

    So who is except him, that almighty , to be worshipped .

    Means still Advaita is not well understood .
    AUM shantih shantih shantih .

  5. #65
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    Re: Blind faith or Bhakti.

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    Namaste Atanuji

    Means still Advaita is not well understood .
    AUM shantih shantih shantih .
    More on this.

    There is a story of Indra and Virochana approaching Prajapati for the knowledge of That fearless immortal Self (Chandogya U.). First, Prajapati taught "This, that you see in the mirror is Self. Virochana believed Prajapati and never came back. He believed that the the perceived body alone is self. Indra however, questioned and came back again and again and finally, after 101 years, was taught:

    VIII-xii-4: Now, where the sight merges in Akasa (inside the eye, i.e., the black pupil of the eye), (there exists) that which is the person in the eye; and the eye is only for (his) seeing. And he who knows ‘I smell this’, is the Atman; the nose is for smelling. And he who knows ‘I speak this’, is the Atman, the organ of speech is for speaking. And he who knows ‘I hear this’, is the Atman; the ear is for hearing.
    VIII-xii-5: And he who knows ‘I think this’, is the Atman, the mind is his divine eye. Through this divine eye of the mind he verily sees these desired objects which are in the Brahman-world, and rejoices.
    VIII-xii-6: ‘Verily, this is the Atman whom the gods worship. Therefore all the worlds and all the desired objects are held by them. He obtains all the worlds all the desired objects, who having known that Atman (from the teacher and the scriptures) understands it.’ Thus spoke Prajapati – yea, thus spoke Prajapati.
    ---------------------------

    What a difference in the teaching. What is seen and heard is not Brahman. The one who knows the seeing and the knowing is the Brahman -- and that power is within the intellect. The above example was shown to demonstrate that virochana had blind faith on Prajapati.



    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 15 March 2010 at 10:17 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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