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Thread: Hindu Universalism

  1. #31
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    namaste Atanu.

    IMHO, KAnchi ParamAchArya's views on the Abrahamic religions are to be viewed in consonance with his views on conversion that I have posted here:

    BibleGod vs Krishna
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...7&postcount=16

    ParamAchArya was a jIvanmukta who would always convey the truth in subtle words and in a loving manner. This specific statement of the AchArya has much to say about what he has conveyed by inference:

    "That the beliefs and customs of the various religions are different cannot be a cause for complaint. Nor is there any need to make all of them similar. The important thing is for the followers of the various faiths to live in harmony with one another. The goal must be unity, not uniformity."

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I will remind you of sage of ---- saying that "I am that I am" and "Be still and know ----" of the Bible are sufficient upadesha equal to Vedanta. To Muslims he said that the true religion is Islam - Surrender. Though, he also discussed with both christians and muslims to dispel their doubts on immanence of God.
    I can't consider these statements of the Bible as the equivalent of VedAnta. They are uttered in different contexts to different people under different circumstances and are a far cry from the MahAvAkyas of the UpaniShads because the Bible texts neither contain elaborate explanations of these statements like the UpaniShads nor prescribe the sAdhana--practice tools towards their realization.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    It is my understanding that just as Roman emperors used Christianity to further their rajasic dreams, Mongol invaders changed the whole complexion of the another religion. Further the antagonism between these two gropus of rulers vitiated the whole teaching and the gnostic elements are buried deep inside literal-historical-ritualistic interpretations forced on gullible public.
    I wonder if any Christian or Islamic scholar or priest has thought of in these lines and published their views, isolating the so-called shruti and smRti parts of the Bible and Quran. I don't understand why should it always be the Hindu sages and commons who need to have a different and more spiritual view of the scriptures of Abrahamic religions, which are unsupported if not scorned at by the orthodox followers of these religions. Why should we Hindus try to be more Catholic than the Pope or more authentic than the Mullahs?
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  2. #32
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Vivekanada on Islam
    by Dinesh Agrawal
    on the synthesis of Hinduism and Islam
    as explained by Dinesh Agrawal

    Following is an often quoted Swamiji's view on the synthesis of Hinduism and Islam, the people do not go in the depth of this Utopian hope: "My experience is that if any religion approached equality in an appreciable manner it is Islam and Islam alone. Therefore, I am firmly persuaded that without the help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful they may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. We want to lead mankind to the place where there is neither the Vedas, nor the Bible, nor the Koran yet this has to be done by harmonising the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran... For our own motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism and Islam-Vedanta brain and Islam body--is the only hope."

    Here Swamiji is very clear that concept of equality of Islam has to be extended to the universal equality as propounded in the Vedantic thought, and the division of the mankind into the land of believers and non-believers or Muslims, Zimmis and Kafirs as enjoined and sanctioned in the Koran has to be done with by synthe- sizing the basic Islamic truths with the Vedantic truth of divinity in all, then only the fusion of Islamic body and Vedantic brain would work.

    (It seems strange to me that Swamiji should think that Vedas do not encourage equality in practice but Mohammad's Islam does. Also, there could be no religion of the Vedantas without the Vedas. Thus it seems to me that svAmi VivekAnanda's VedAntic religion with the body of Islam can at best be only a dream. It also seems to me that VivekAnanda compromised if not sacrificed some of the ideals of Hinduism for the sake of gaining the attention of the wild and civilized West, which was perhaps a necessity in his time.--sd)

    **********
    Namaste saidevoji,

    You are correct. Swamiji was an activist. The immutable Master was however Ramakrishna. Unlike Ramakrishna or Ramana who stood like rock with their conviction, Swami Vivekanada reacted and evolved. What you say (in blue fonts above) can also be turned in the opposite direction -- that is, much of his anti islam stance was popular.

    With time, Swamiji also said things which may create hatred in the hearts of Hindus. But it was his purely staunch practical stance:

    “Mohammed – the Messenger of equality. You ask, ‘What good can there be in his religion?’ If there was no good, how could it live? The good alone lives, that alone survives… How could Mohammedanism have lived, had there been nothing good in its teachings? There is much good.”

    “Mohammed by his life showed that amongst the Mohammedans there should be perfect equality and brotherhood. There was no question of race, caste, colour or sex. ---"

    “It is a mistaken statement that has been made to us that the Mohammedans do not believe that women have souls…I am not a Mohammedan, but yet I have had opportunities for studying them, and there is not one word in the Koran which says that women have no souls, but in fact it says they have.”

    “Practical Advaitism … is yet to be developed among the Hindus universally… Therefore we are firmly persuaded that without the help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful they may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind…......"

    Late in his life (but very early compared to us, since he lived only 29 years), he said:

    'There must be no more of this anger.' Mother (Devi) said: 'What even if the unbeliever should enter My temples, and defile My images, what is that to you? Do you protect me? Or do I protect you?

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #33
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    Namaste atanu,

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I have reason to be disppointed since you do not cognise above and also see nothing wrong with the categorisation of Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Sathya Sai, Sri Prabhupada and others as NEO.

    Any way. Not to add to confusion i bow out.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Who is categorizing viveka, ramskrishna, sai baba and prbhupada as Neo? They are contemporary. Are they not? Even if they are categorized as Neo what's wrong with that? Is Neo a derogotary term?

    Did any traditional acarya say that Koran is a revelaed scripture? No, they didn't. Since it was not worth their time to examine anything outside of the Vedas. Anything that doesn't have vedas as its source is not worth examining since by default it would be maleccha and thus not worthy of any examination.

    Viveka, sri aurobindo, prabhupada, osho, one doesn't have to search far to see that they were great scholars. I will leave at that.

    I request other readers of this thread to do their own examination of the lives of vivekanda, aurobindo, prabhupada and osho. I can only speak about these four because I have studied them with a lot of interest and with some depth. If one studies their lives, one would know that these scholars would not have termed the koran as a revealed scripture. However, I digress and invite the reader to their own studies.

    Thanks,
    satay

  4. #34
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    The following is from Complete Works

    http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_1/lectures_and_discourses/practical_religion_breathing_and_meditation_frame.htm

    MOHAMMED

    This article was recorded by Ida Ansell in shorthand. As, however, Swamiji's speed was too great for her in her early days, dots are put in the articles to indicate the omissions, while the words within square brackets are added by way of linking up the disconnected parts.


    (Delivered on March 25, 1900, in the San Francisco Bay Area)

    The ancient message of Krishna is one harmonising three — Buddha's, Christ's and Mohammed's. Each of the three started an idea and carried it to its extreme. Krishna antedates all the other prophets. [Yet, we might say,] Krishna takes the old ideas and synthesises them, [although] his is the most ancient message. His message was for the time being submerged by the advance wave of Buddhism. Today it is the message peculiar to India. If you will have it so, this afternoon I will take Mohammed and bring out the particular work of the great Arabian prophet....
    Mohammed [as] a young man ... did not [seem to] care much for religion.

    He was inclined to make money. He was considered a nice young man and very handsome. There was a rich widow. She fell in love with this young man, and they married. When Mohammed had become emperor over the larger part of the world, the Roman and Persian empires were all under his feet, and he had a number of wives. When one day he was asked which wife he liked best, he pointed to his first wife: "Because she believed [in] me first." Women have faith.... Gain independence, gain everything, but do not lose that characteristic of women! ...

    Mohammed's heart was sick at the sin, idolatry and mock worship, superstitions and human sacrifices, and so on. The Jews were degraded by the Christians. On the other hand, the Christians were worse degraded than his own countrymen.

    We are always in a hurry. [But] if any great work is to be done, there must be great preparation. ... After much praying, day and night, Mohammed began to have dreams and visions. Gabriel appeared to him in a dream and told him that he was the messenger of truth. He told him that the message of Jesus, of Moses, and all the prophets would be lost and asked him to go and preach. Seeing the Christians preaching politics in the name of Jesus, seeing the Persians preaching dualism, Mohammed said: "Our God is one God. He is the Lord of all that exists. There is no comparison between Him and any other." God is God. There is no philosophy, no complicated code of ethics. "Our God is one without a second, and Mohammed is the Prophet." ...

    Mohammed began to preach it in the streets of Mecca. ... They began to persecute him, and he fled into the city of [Medina]. He began to fight, and the whole race became united. [Mohammedanism] deluged the world in the name of the Lord. The tremendous conquering power! ...

    You ... people have very hard ideas and are so superstitious and prejudiced! These messengers must have come from God, else how could they have been so great? You look at every defect. Each one of us has his defects. Who hasn't? I can point out many defects in the Jews. The wicked are always looking for defects. ... Flies come and seek for the [ulcer], and bees come only for the honey in the flower. Do not follow the way of the fly but that of the bee....

    Mohammed married quite a number of wives afterwards. Great men may marry two hundred wives each. "Giants" like you, I would not allow to marry one wife. The characters of the great souls are mysterious, their methods past our finding out. We must not judge them. Christ may judge Mohammed. Who are you and I? Little babies. What do we understand of these great souls? ...

    [Mohammedanism] came as a message for the masses. ... The first message was equality. ... There is one religion — love. No more question of race, colour, [or] anything else. Join it! That practical quality carried the day. ... The great message was perfectly simple. Believe in one God, the creator of heaven and earth. All was created out of nothing by Him. Ask no questions. ...

    Their temples are like Protestant churches. ... no music, no paintings, no pictures. A pulpit in the corner; on that lies the Koran. The people all stand in line. No priest, no person, no bishop. ... The man who prays must stand at the side of the audience. Some parts are beautiful. ...

    These old people were all messengers of God. I fall down and worship them; I take the dust of their feet. But they are dead! ... And we are alive. We must go ahead! ... Religion is not an imitation of Jesus or Mohammed. Even if an imitation is good, it is never genuine. Be not an imitation of Jesus, but be Jesus, You are quite as great as Jesus, Buddha, or anybody else. If we are not ... we must struggle and be. I would not be exactly like Jesus. It is unnecessary that I should be born a Jew. ...

    The greatest religion is to be true to your own nature. Have faith in yourselves! If you do not exist, how can God exist, or anybody else? Wherever you are, it is this mind that perceives even the Infinite. I see God, therefore He exists. If I cannot think of God, He does not exist [for me]. This is the grand march of our human progress.

    These [great souls] are signposts on the way. That is all they are. They say, "Onward, brothers!" We cling to them; we never want to move. We do not want to think; we want others to think for us. The messengers fulfil their mission. They ask to be up and doing. A hundred years later we cling to the message and go to sleep.

    Talking about faith and belief and doctrine is easy, but it is so difficult to build character and to stem the tide of the senses. We succumb. We become hypocrites. ...

    [Religion] is not a doctrine, [not] a rule. It is a process. That is all.

    [Doctrines and rules] are all for exercise. By that exercise we get strong and at last break the bonds and become free. Doctrine is of no use except for gymnastics. ... Through exercise the soul becomes perfect. That exercise is stopped when you say, "I believe." ...

    "Whenever virtue subsides and immorality abounds, I take human form. In every age I come for the salvation of the good, for the destruction of the wicked, for the establishment of spirituality." (Gita, IV. 7-8.)

    [Such] are the great messengers of light. They are our great teachers, our elder brothers. But we must go our own way!

    Om namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #35
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    namaskar,

    So, is this a scholary examination of the Koran by a Hindu? Or is the implication that Vivekananda terming Koran as a revealed scripture?

    Or both perhaps?
    satay

  6. #36

    Re: Hindu Universalism

    (It seems strange to me that Swamiji should think that Vedas do not encourage equality in practice but Mohammad's Islam does. Also, there could be no religion of the Vedantas without the Vedas. Thus it seems to me that svAmi VivekAnanda's VedAntic religion with the body of Islam can at best be only a dream. It also seems to me that VivekAnanda compromised if not sacrificed some of the ideals of Hinduism for the sake of gaining the attention of the wild and civilized West, which was perhaps a necessity in his time.--sd)
    Thank you Saidevo Ji for wonderful post. Swami Vivekananda Ji's comments must be evaluated in the context of the formation of the Indian Nation as an independant entity from British Rule, and still struggling with crushed self-identity as British created a racist caste-based society, manipulated and edited scriptures such as Manu Smritis to establish domination of thought by legal system using Manu Smritis as it's authoritative base like substitute for a Christian Bible (Which the West has used as moral foundation for jurisprudence.)

    It takes a lot of scholarship to unravel now what is the true meaning and functioning of the caste-varna system after the British have hijacked it, and before them the Muslim kings. But one consistent theme which is true of any occupation is the tendency to blame the victims as deserving all sort of abuse by defaming their beliefs and culture.Why are we still discussing like this in this era, with these clear understandings? Why would we give any credibility to political distortions of the caste-varna system which have remained such a blight on Indian Society as the longest lasting legacy of the false interpretation of this teaching?

    Swami Vivekananda Ji had no choice. He was the product of the British Educational system, and all his writings should reflect our consciousness of that. What is remarkable about the man is his utter love for India and Hinduism shining through the incredible morass of self-hatred which WAS the British system of Raj taught to Indians. Swami Ji was also dealing with Mohandian-ism, that political worship of Mohandas Gandhi as the "greatest spiritual saint who ever lived" and his utterly Jain ideology of pacifism and appeasement in an effort to form Independent India into a secular state. The only way to do this would have been full integration of the Muslim population. The only problem was the Muslim's under Jinnah demanded more and more until they obtained their own Muslim Raj, Pakistan.

    So these political philosophies of Islam as equal and universal have to do with the whole project of Nation-building which was going on at the time. Sadly the results are clearly evident that Muslims declared a Jihad under Jinnah DESPITE all these CONCESSIONS and obtained their civil war, their partition, their mass slaughter, their destruction of minority populations under their rule (namely Hindu's and Sikhs), a war culture represented by consecutive military dictatorships, and finally a Nation torn apart by the most spectacular violent religious fundamentalism ever seen.

    I think we can safely rest the ghosts of the Indian independence movement and no longer use their political ideologies as gospel political truths of today. Islam has demanded itself to be different. Islam has achieved the distinction of rejecting the legitimacy of all other faiths. And ISLAM, not "Hindu prejudice and hatred" has created jihadi Islam as an ENEMY of other world religions. And we have to realistically deal with that and stop pretending their our equals when the teachings clearly oppose our religion and our right and freedom to practice it. I am sorry Gandhi was wrong on this point. But he clearly was. And all the brotherly wishes for unity and intellectual justifications for the horrible disruption (terrorism) of the Islamics themselves HAVE NOT STOPPED THE VIOLENCE OR MINIMIZED THE THREAT.

    And therefore, in the interest of common sense and the dignity of self-respect and out of love for our own communities, we must be HONEST in acknowledging the ADHARMA of Islamic religion and it's intentions toward us. And this is not to diminish the character of Swami Vivekananda Ji. But his words on this subject reflect the politics of his day, and are in NO WAY SRUTI FOR ALL HINDU'S.

  7. #37
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    namaskar,

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Why should we Hindus try to be more Catholic than the Pope or more authentic than the Mullahs?
    yes, why indeed?

    Isn't it true that just the fact that you are pondering this in a public forum would get you labelled as a hindu extremist or belonging to hindutva or of being a nationalist?
    satay

  8. #38

    Re: Hindu Universalism

    I'm still trying to figure out how Hindu Nationalism became a dirty word and an ugly thing and how defending those forces dedicated to our destruction became representitive of "authentic spirituality."

    We have been infiltrated with an ideology of self-hatred and this is what has the power to destroy us. Have you ever heard of a Communist or a Muslim defaming their own ideologies the way we defame ourselves almost justifying their right to dominate our own?

  9. #39
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    namaste Atanu.

    I wonder if any Christian or Islamic scholar or priest has thought of in these lines and published their views, isolating the so-called shruti and smRti parts of the Bible and Quran. ---?
    Namaste saidevoji,

    First, this is the teaching of Swami Ranganatha. Second, yes there are Gnostics and Sufis.

    I can't consider these statements of the Bible as the equivalent of VedAnta. They are uttered in different contexts to different people under different circumstances and are a far cry from the MahAvAkyas of the UpaniShads because the Bible texts neither contain elaborate explanations of these statements like the UpaniShads nor prescribe the sAdhana--practice tools towards their realization.
    That is not the point. The point is "I am That I am" is taught in Bible. If Church hides it or common people do not see it is another matter. Further there is no dispute that Veda-Vedanta is MOTHER of all scripture. To show that we must know the correspondence. As Swami Vivekananda says:


    The ancient message of Krishna is one harmonising three Buddha's, Christ's and Mohammed's.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #40
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    Re: Hindu Universalism

    namaste Atanu.

    I knew you would come up with this article! It is addressed to the Christians at San Francisco and not to the Hindus in India. Swamiji has always held that Christians hated Muslims much more than Muslims hated Christians. Dinesh Agrawal in the opening para of part 3 of his essay has quoted Swamiji's narration of the barbaric Tartaric invasion of Jerusalem and the even more barbaric Christian reaction to it. It is to the Christians with such a history of propagation of their religion that Swamiji spoke about the 'virtues' of Mohammad. To the Hindus in India however, he was more practical and realistic and showed the true character of Mohammad's achievement and the Koran's spiritual authenticity as I have shown in my collection.

    Atanu, I am really interested--and willing to concede some advaitic spiritual ground to the Abrahamic religions--if you can show the writings of some Christian or Islamic scholar who has thought about their religions on the lines you are inclined to think about. Even the Christian scholars such as Koenraad ELST and Francois Gautier who have done some authentic research on Hinduism and have earned the acclaim of the Hindus, are not prepared to find even semblances of their findings in their own religious scriptures.

    Instead of wasting our time on how our modern Hindu sages view Islam and Christianity, let us find out what our traditional scriptures shruti and smRti say about our own religion vis-a-vis the other Hindu religions, how Sankara debated with them and spread his teachings. I would request your extensive scholarship towards that end for the real benefit of the Hindus, as it is also the need of the times we live in today.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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