Re: Quote from Kena Upanishad suggests there is non-Brahman - carried over thread

[smaranam]

Hi Smarnanam. If I may make an inquiry, the text you cited seems to imply that there is a distinction between Brahman and the rest of the created world (or at least between God as we worship him, and Brahman). Could you elaborate on how this texts relates to the idea of all things being a part of Brahman?

Hi Sanjay

Good question. Yes, everything is Brahman, and Brahman is all there is. Then what is this non-Brahman of Kena Upanishad ?

[ for instance,
Kena Upanishad 1.4,5

1-4. That which the speech cannot reveal, but causes the speech to flow, know that alone to be Brahman, not this that you worship here.

1-5. That which mind cannot conceptualize , but by which the mind does conceptualize, know that alone to be Brahman , not this that you worship here.
]


Let me try from what i have learnt and understood, and others can correct me.

The Pure Consciousness and Principle of existence is Brahman' , from which everything emanates. Brahman doesn't act. This world we see and perceive is Prakruti, Mother Nature. She is an aspect of Purusha, Brahman, but not separate from Him, and is His energy.

Thru' this energy , Prakruti, Brahman projects the manifested Universe, Jagat , and pervades it entirely of course , to make the otherwise insentient, sentient .
This is how everything projected from Brahman is Brahman, just as a spider spins a web using substance from within itself.

So,

non-living objetcs of matter = gross matter, sthUla Prakrti
bodies of living beings = gross matter, sthUla Prakruti (dead matter without sentience of Brahman)
minds, senses, intellect = subtle matter, sUkshma Prakrti, yet it is Prakrti, not the Self, AtmA, not Brahman proper.
ego (ahamkAra : false identity of oneself with gross and subtle body) = subtle , part of sUkshma sharira.

innermost AtmA = Self = Brahman - untouched by matter gross or subtle, pure spiritual existence = Brahman'
This AtmA, Self, Brahman' is what we have to realize as the real 'I'.

***Trees and animals too are embodied AtmA.***

I am not the body, senses, mind, intellect, ego, thoughts, speech, achievements, opinions
I am pure existence , consciousness, eternal, stable , unmoving.
I am Sat = existence, Chit = knowledge, Ananda = Bliss
I am that same substance that pervades this appearant manifested Universe.

What about the Universe then ?
It is (gross and subtle matter as we perceive it) , transient, changing, non-permanent, fleeting, momentary if you know the word
'kshanabhangur'. Hence it is not real. It is mithya.

Mithya = transient , hence in this context , not everlasting , illusiory, not real.

Brahman satya , Jagat mithya.

Ishvar is our Creator, the highest PAraBrahman, who manifested this Universe, who looks after us, who loves us, who guides us, who stays with us.

***We are made of the same sat-chit-ananda 'spiritual substance' , the same gold , as Ishvar.***

And that gold is Brahman. The illusion , appearance is that we are a bangle, bracelet, pAyal, ring, etc. and come up with
different properties to shape our individual personality. But the truth is, we are gold. There is only one gold. One Universal Self = AmA = Brahman'.

How do we know we know what we know ?
We realize how we are that Brahman' , the gold and not the ornament.



Best thing to do is go through the forum >> Philosophy-->Advaita , and ask any questions there.

A good place to start :

Aham Brahmasmi Part One :
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4824

Aham Brahmasmi - 2 :
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4941


Hope that helps a little, and sorry about the confusion.

Namaste

[satay]

namaskar,
Sorry about the intrusion.

As far as I know, advaita vedanta doesn't teach that there is prakrti. There is nothing else but one inert, actionless, without any quality Brahman.

The reason why I bring this up is because you have posted this thread in advaita forum.

The Pure Consciousness and Principle of existence is Brahman' , from which everything emanates. Brahman doesn't act. This world we see and perceive is Prakruti, Mother Nature. She is an aspect of Purusha, Brahman, but not separate from Him, and is His energy.

Thru' this energy , Prakruti, Brahman projects the manifested Universe, Jagat , and pervades it entirely of course , to make the otherwise insentient, sentient .
This is how everything projected from Brahman is Brahman, just as a spider spins a web using substance from within itself.
Namaste

[smaranam]

NamaskAr Satayji

Thanks, that is why i said others can correct me.

However, this Prakruti is what Advaita Vedanta calls MAyA, isn't it ? Or at least
the source of mAyA. Since everything is Brahman', mAyA is a part of Him.

If not , what is MAyA ?

1. from Acharya Dr. SadanandaJi's discourse (a wonderful Guru)
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses..._sadananda.htm

‘I’, when associated with total, cosmic BMI (body-mind-intellect), is called Ishvara and is the locus for mAyA, the power of projection. The total projected universe is Ishvara’s sRRiShTi (‘creation’). This projection is called vyavahAra. The rope that I see in the rope-snake example is not my creation; it is Ishvara’s. It is the snake alone that is ‘my’ creation (erroneous superimposition). In the 13 th chapter of the Gita, Krishna says that prakRRiti (mAyA) does all of the actions, including creation, of course under Ishvara's direction.


2. Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)

3. http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad_faq.html
The world of multiplicity can be explained as due to mAyA, the power of creation wielded by the Creator, who is therefore also called the mAyin

-------------

I was trying not to open the can too much, as to let people take time to go thru' the threads here.

Terms

MAyA Illusion, the aspect of Brahman' that promotes illusion
Prakruti Nature


PraNAm

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

satay you said:

As far as I know, advaita vedanta doesn't teach that there is prakrti. There is nothing else but one inert, actionless, without any quality Brahman.

That would reduce Advaita to a singular supposition, a singular proposition.

The second part of you quote reduces Advaita to a singular poetic sentiment.

A singular supposition predicated on nothing except an intellectual agreement with the sentiment.

As explained in the Gita, the latter of yoga is:

Karma-Yoga,
Gyana-yoga
bhakti-yoga

Taken as a whole the above three paths of yoga involve analytical study and application of material resources in service to others, just as the nature of the soul is to be "active".

Kapila taught his mother Gyana-yoga perfectly as can be expected. That explaination is study of the nature of things as they are.

It is after this is known that an aspirant performs the exercise of 'neti-neti' and thereafter arives at a ppoint to declare the sumation of their yoga disciplines: To be 'Advaita' or not to be 'Advaita' . . . .

[Onkara]

namaskar,
Sorry about the intrusion.

As far as I know, advaita vedanta doesn't teach that there is prakrti. There is nothing else but one inert, actionless, without any quality Brahman.

The reason why I bring this up is because you have posted this thread in advaita forum.

Namasté
This is correct, it is an Advaitin perspective imho. I would expand on this by quoting the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita to illustrate. Of course the BG is recognised by Advaitins.

The Lord says: "The earth, water, fire, air, space, mind, intellect and the ego-sense constitue My distinctive eight-fold nature" Ch VII - verse 4.

"This is my lower nature; but My higher nature, know to be other than it. That constitutes, mighted armed! the living being by which this world is upheld". Ch VII - verse 5.

"Know all beings to be born of this My dual nature. I am the source the entire world as well as that into which it is dissolved" Ch VII - verse 6.

Verse 4 is the field and verse 5, depicted here as the vital force, is the field knower. Activity, according to Shankara, is due to the ego-sense which is derived from mind and intellect. Note that the elements which make up the material world along with mind and intellect are Krishna. Hence all is Brahman and there is, at the highest perspective, nothing which is seperate from Brahman. The dualities only appear due to the body-mind-intellect, which is nothing other than prakriti (nature) itself as per verse 4.

I personally would say that the world (universe) is relatively real, as it is clearly relative to my body-mind-intellect. It is very real to me as a body-mind-intellect whilst I exist as a body-mind-intellect in the world. The world would appear to cease when my body-mind-intellect depart or enter deep sleep. However as deep sleep and other factors (i.e. Sruti and Smrti) dictate, I am beyond the body-mind-intellect as I am Atman. As I am Atman I am, according to Advaita also Brahman, in the same way as pearls (Atmans) are strung on a necklace (Brahman).

Krishna says:

"Nothing whatsoever is beyond Me. All this is strung on Me like clusters of gems on a thread." Ch VII - verse 7.

Best wishes and happy new year to all!

[devotee]

Namaste,

Good posts from Smaranam & Snip !

There is nothing else but one inert, actionless, without any quality Brahman.

This is interesting. If It is inert, actionless & without any quality then how do we account for the Waking & Dreaming States ? It is inert but interacts with all. It is actionless but doer of all actions. All qualities reflected in first three states are projected from It & yet it remains beyond all qualities.

OM

[smaranam]

<Originally Posted by Satay
There is nothing else but one inert, actionless, without any quality Brahman.>

This is interesting. If It is inert, actionless & without any quality then how do we account for the Waking & Dreaming States ? It is inert but interacts with all. It is actionless but doer of all actions. All qualities reflected in first three states are projected from It & yet it remains beyond all qualities.

OM

Thank You Devoteeji

That explains this so well ! The 4 states.

I suppose this is what Adi Shankaracharya calls
a. PrAtibhAsik - illusiory state, illusion - like in the dream state or in ignorance (rope projected by Ishvar is perceived as a snake)
b. VyavahArik - relative truth of the Universal existence for transactional purposes
c. PArmArthik Satya - Absolute truth of One Brahman , Consciousness alone, just seeing the gold as gold and not the ornaments (names and forms)


Shankaracharya summed up Vedanta in 3 statements :
"Brahman satya, jagat mithya , jivo brahmaiva na para"
http://vedantamission.tripod.com/gurus/adisank3.htm

PraNAm

[smaranam]

Respected members,
PraNAm

I have edited the above to include PrAtibhAsik, for your review, the exact aphorism by Adi Shankaracharya and a link that explains them.

Thank you.