LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

[Krsna Das]

Please accept my Dandavat Pranamas at your feet !

All Glories to SriSri Radha Krsna !

I have seen many threads here in HDF in relation to this topic and instead of posting my post in each one of them, I am giving my response here in this seperate thread.

This thread is not for debating with anybody, but just as an FYI - what actually our sidhhanta is. This is summarized as follows (I am describing very briefly and in a simple manner):

1. Sada-Siva is non-different from Visnu-tattva : Sada-Siva, who resides in eternal abode below the vaikuntha Lokas is Visnu Murti and not Jiva Tattva.

2. Rudra - Siva is different from Visnu-tattva: Example is given from Brahma Samhita 5:45 (http://vedabase.net/bs/5/45/en). Though milk is changed to curd by association of acids, in actuality curd is nothing but milk only. In similar way, Sambhu or Rudra is and at the same time is not Visnu tattva. Though curd is nothing but milk, but still the taste and the affect of curd is not same as that of milk. Also milk can be transformed into curd by acids, but curd cannot be transformed into milk by any means. In the smilar way, Rudra-Siva is NOT called the "Swansa/Kaya-Vyuha" (direct expansion) of Visnu, because he accepts "Mayik-Vikar" by which he manifests himself as Shambhu.

3. Rudra-Siva is Vibhinnansa-tattva: Just like the Jivas are Vibhinnansa (eternally situated seperated parcels of the Supreme Lord), similary Rudra-Siva is Vibhinnansa-tattva.

4. Sada-Siva is not Jiva-Tattva: Since Sada-Siiva is visnu-tattva, one must NOT consider him to be like ouselves (Jivas), because Jivas have propensity to come under jurisdiction of maya, but Siva is called "Sada-Swaroop-Samprapta" meaning always situated in his eternal position.

5. Gradation in qualities (Kala-Tattva): Krsna has all the 64 qualities as infinite, Lord Visnu has all 60 qualities as Infinite, Lord Sada-Siva has 55 in Bindu-roop (like a droplet), Brahma also has 50 same as Lord Siva, but the additional 5 qualities present in Lord Siva is present in him as Bindu-Ansa-Roop (portion of a drop). If you want to know what actually these qualities are, please email me.

6. Krsna can never be attained without the Mercy of Lord Sada-Siva: Lord Siva is called the highest among all the vaisnavas in Srimad Bhagwatam (http://vedabase.net/sb/12/13/16/en). Since Krsna cannot be attained without the mercy of vaisnavas, it is impossible to attain Krsna without mercy of Lord Siva. It is for this reason that some of our Gaudiya Mathas also have Lord Siva sitauted in the form of Siva-Linga, just like other temples.


Hare Krsna !

[Krsna Das]

Hari Bol !

A few persons have requested me through email to discuss the kala-tattva that I have mentioned as point number 5 in my post above.

These are the 64 qualities present in Krsna:

ayam neta su-ramyangah sarva-sal-laksananvitah

ruciras tejasa yukto baliyan vayasanvitah

1) ayam neta su-ramyangah - endowed with delightfully charming bodily limbs

2) sarva-sal-laksananvitah - endowed with all auspicious characteristics;

3) ruciras - beautiful;

4) tejasa yukto - radiant;

5) baliyan - strong;

6) vayasanvitah - eternally youthful;

vividhadbhuta-bhasa-vit satya-vakyah priyam-vadah

vavadukah su-pandityo buddhiman pratibhanvitah

7) vividhadbhuta-bhasa-vit - conversant with many kinds of astonishing languages;

8) satya-vakyah - truthful;

9) priyam-vadah - a pleasing speaker;

10) vavadukah - eloquent;

11) su-pandityo - intelligent;

12) buddhiman - learned;

13) pratibhanvitah - resourceful;

vidagdhas caturo daksah krta-jnah su-drdha-vratah

desa-kala-supatra-jnah sastra-caksuh sucir vasi

14) vidagdha - expert in relishing mellows;

15) caturo - clever;

16) daksah - expert;

17) krta-jnah - grateful;

18) su-drdha-vratah - very firm in His vows;

19) desa-kala-supatra-jnah - an astute judge of time, place and circumstance;

20) sastra-caksuh - a seer through the eyes of sastras;

21) sucir - pure;

22) vasi - self-controlled;

sthiro dantah ksama-silo gambhiro dhrtiman samah

vadanyo dharmikah surah karuno manya-mana-krt

23) sthiro - steadfast;

24) dantah - forebearing;

25) ksama-silo - forgiving;

26) gambhiro - inscrutable;

27) dhrtiman - sober;

28) samah - equipoised;

29) vadanyo - munificent;

30) dharmikah - virtuous;

31) surah - chivalrous;

32) karuno - compassionate;

33) manya-mana-krt - respectful to others;

daksino vinayi hriman saranagata-palakah

sukhi bhakta-suhrt prema-vasyah sarva-subhankarah

34) daksino - amiable;

35) vinayi - modest;

36) hriman - shy;

37) saranagata-palakah - the protector of surrendered souls;

38) sukhi – always happy;

39) bhakta-suhrt - the well-wisher of His bhaktas;

40) prema-vasyah - controlled by prema;

41) sarva-subhankarah - the benefactor of all;

pratapi kirtiman rakta-lokah sadhu-samasrayah

nari-gana-manohari sarvaradhyah samrddhiman

42) pratapi - the tormentor of His enemies;

43) kirtiman - famous;

44) rakta-lokah - beloved by all;

45) sadhu-samasrayah - partial to the side of the sadhus;

46) nari-gana-manohari - the enchanter of women’s minds;

47) sarvaradhyah - all-worshipable;

48) samrddhiman - all-opulent;

variyan isvaras ceti gunas tasyanukirtitah

samudra iva pancasad durvigaha harer ami

49) variyan - superior to all;

50) isvara - the controller.

These fifty qualities are present in Krsna and Visnu in infinite degree like the unfathomable ocean, in Jivas in atomic degree

sada svarupa-sampraptah sarva-jno nitya-nutanah

sac-cid-ananda-sandrangah sarva-siddhi-nisevitah

51) sada svarupa-sampraptah - He is always situated in His svarupa;

52) sarva-jno - He is omniscient;

53) nitya-nutanah - He is ever-fresh and new;

54) sac-cid-ananda-sandrangah - He is the concentrated form of existence, knowledge and bliss;

55) sarva-siddhi-nisevitah - He is served by all mystic opulences.

The above 5 qualities are not present in Jivas, but present in Krsna and Visnu as infinite, and qualities from 1- 55 are present in Lord Siva in a droplet form (Bindu-roop) and in Brahma as portion of a droplet (Bindu-ansha-roop).

athocyante gunah panca ye laksmisadi-vartinah

avicintya-maha-saktih koti-brahmanda-vigrahah

avataravali-bijam hatari-gati-dayakah

atmarama-ganakarsity ami krsne kiladbhutah

Laksmipati Narayana or Visnu has an additional five qualities, which are not present in Jivas, nor Siva and neither Brahma, but present in him and Krsna to infinite degree:

56) avicintya-maha-saktih - He possesses inconceivable potencies;

57) koti-brahmanda-vigrahah - innumerable universes are situated within His body;

58) avataravali-bijam - He is the original cause or seed of all avataras;

59) hatari-gati-dayakah - He awards gati (a higher destination) to those whom He kills;

60) atmarama-ganakarsity - He can attract even those who are atmarama (satisfied within the self).



The following four qualities are present only in Krsna to infinite degree, they are not present in any one else, not even Sri Visnu and his incarnations, or Lord Rama:

sarvadbhuta-camatkara-lila-kallola-varidhih

atulya-madhurya-prema-mandita-priya-mandalah

tri-jagan-mananas-akarshi-murali-kal-kujitaih

asamanorddhva-rupa-srih vismapita-caracarah

61) sarvadbhuta-camatkara-lila-kallola-varidhih - He is like a vast ocean teeming with waves of the most astonishing and wonderful lilas;

62) atulya-madhurya-prema-mandita-priya-mandalah - He is adorned with incomparable madhurya-prema, and thus is auspiciousness personified for His beloved bhaktas, who also have unparalleled prema for Him;

63) tri-jagan-mananas-akarshi-murali-kal-kujitaih - He attracts the three worlds with the marvelous vibration of His murali (flute);

64) asamanorddhva-rupa-srih vismapita-caracarah - The resplendent rupa (beauty) of His transcendental form is unparalleled, charming and astonishing to all moving and non-moving entities in the three worlds.

[Krsna Das]

I will add more material to this as the time allows.

Thanks to all those who reminded me to update this thread.

Radhe Radhe !

[Krsna Das]

ALL questions related to this thread should be posted here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5107

Now let us continue this discussion related to two aspects of Siva:

(1) Sada-Siva and
(2) Rudra-Siva

Sada-Siva: He is Visnu-tattva, and also the greatest of vaishnavas. His abode is Siva-Loka which is below the uncountable vaikuntha lokas and above the viraja river or brahmajyoti region (where the jnanis who worship impersonal brahman float in bhaman-drava after attaining kaivalya). Those devotees, who worship Visnu, considerinf Siva as their Guru and as a graitest vaishnava, attain this abode. There they remain forever, hearing the hari-katha from Lord Siva. These Jivas are known as Sidhhas.

Rudra-Siva: Also called as Sambhu, generated from the region between the eyebrows of Maha-Visnu or Karnodaksayi Visnu (Virat-Purush -- who is the subjective-planery-portion of the planery-portion of Supreme Lord) during creation of universe. He is manifested in the form of a light-pillar (prakash-stambh) - the emblem of which is worshipped by human beings here on earth as Siva-Linga. This light-pillar falls on Mahat-tattva generated by the pores of Maha-Visnu during creation of universe, which is the expansaion of Maya-Sakti. This Maya-Sakti is the perverted reflection of the cit-potency, also known as Swarup-Sakti.

This Rudra-Siva is Jiva-tattva and so vibhinnansa-tattva, also called Saktya-vesha avtar because Maha-Visnu empoweres a particular Jiva with an adulterating principle or mayik-vikar which comprises of three saktis for manifesting Rudra-Siva -
(1) Tamo- guna of Maya-Sakti (stupefying quality of the deluding energy)
(2) Swalpata-guna of tatastha-sakti (the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency)
(3) Small portion of Ahladini-guna-cum-Samvit-guna of Swarup-Sakti of Krsna (a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary-spiritual potency)

The abode of Sambhu is wirthin each brahmanda, and it is temporary. The jivas who worship Siva as an independent diety, independent of Visnu, attain this abode, but come back to this mortal realm once there span in that abode is over.

If any such Jiva is not available because of insufficient punya-punja required for attaining this position, then Visnu himself become Rudra-Siva. Ridra-Siva in this case is then known as swamsa-expansion of Lord and not the vibhinnansa-expansion (in those universes in which this happens.) Rudra-Siva is responsible for destruction of cosmos during pralaya.

For more details, see this post : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...1&postcount=18

More Later....Hari Bol !

[satay]

Admin Note

namaskar,

Questions have been moved to this thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5107

Please continue the questions there. This thread is dedicated strictly on Lord siva (as requested by krsna).

[Elizabeth108]

Hi,

Could real ISKCON members explain how they understand this part of the SB and how they view Shiva's followers in the light of this passage? Do you agree with this description of Shiva's follower?

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/29/en

Thanks.

Om Namah Shivaya

(I did not wish to begin a new thread, I think description of Shiva's followers can be connected to how Shiva is regarded, too)

[Baobobtree]

Those who vow to worship Lord Śiva are so foolish that they imitate him by keeping long hair on their heads. When initiated into worship of Lord Śiva, they prefer to live on wine, flesh and other such things.

The fact that this text mentions Shaivas living on flesh and wine, would indicate that this verse pertains specifically to followers of Tantric Shaiva sects that follow the Vamachara form of worship.

[Yogkriya]

Hi,

Could real ISKCON members explain how they understand this part of the SB and how they view Shiva's followers in the light of this passage? Do you agree with this description of Shiva's follower?

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/29/en

Thanks.

Om Namah Shivaya

(I did not wish to begin a new thread, I think description of Shiva's followers can be connected to how Shiva is regarded, too)

Tantra is beyond understanding of common man as its inner meanings tend to get twisted easily when looked through the prism of intellect and ego.

The purport is biased of course and very generalized.
To start with it says "Those who vow to worship Lord Śiva are so foolish that they imitate him by keeping long hair on their heads. When initiated into worship of Lord Śiva, they prefer to live on wine, flesh and other such things."
Now, when you say "those who vow to worship Siva are so foolish..." it means everyone who worships shiva is foolish? Then it includes "keeping long hair" as a negative attribute of being foolish. Let's see if this has to be true then, Krishna kept long hair, Rama kept long hair and both of them worshipped Lord Shiva ardently several times. ??? See through the biased purports and writings??? See downing the Shaivas? Can a realized being really write that in Bhagvatam??? What am I questioning here? Who put that in Bhagvatam? When was that changed? Clearly not Vyasadeva.

Everything is so generalized and a sort of judgment is given on Shiva followers categorizing them as foolish and all worshipping Lord of the Lords - Shiva by drinking wine, meat etc. Of course the actual knowers know what Shiva worship is. Which is not about intoxication or eating flesh. Now why are Shiva worshippers being categorized as foolish and indulging in such activities? Is there a political sampradayik motive? Possible.

Nandbaba in Nandgram worshipped Shiva kept long hair too. So did Queen Kunti. So did the pandavas including Arjun. He also kept long hair!

Shiva worship can be the highest worship. There are some vam marg tantrik practices, but they are not to be understood by common man easily. Not by intellect, not by ego. They are strictly to be done by a selected few under sharp guidance of an able Guru with outmost self discipline, curbing the senses and the ego. Its not enjoyment of senses as wrongly perceived by intellectuals. Nor it should be gratification of the ego. Smearing ashes is not bad. Please refer to Lord Krsna's own words on understanding Lord Shiva's worship and following instead of intellectual speculation. Read Anushasan Parva, Mahabharata - Krsna talking about Lord Shiva and his penances to please Lord of the Lords!!

Hare Krsna! Namah Shivaya!

Yogkriya

[smaranam]

Hare KRSNa

Just bumping up this thread, since many people have come with questions.
The purpose is to highlight the OP only.

SadAshiva is VishNu tattva on the other side of Viraj river.
Rudra Shiva is partial expansion from MahaVishnu's forehead.

The purport is biased of course and very generalized.
To start with it says "Those who vow to worship Lord Śiva are so foolish that they imitate him by keeping long hair on their heads. When initiated into worship of Lord Śiva, they prefer to live on wine, flesh and other such things."
Now, when you say "those who vow to worship Siva are so foolish..." it means everyone who worships shiva is foolish? Then it includes "keeping long hair" as a negative attribute of being foolish. Let's see if this has to be true then, Krishna kept long hair, Rama kept long hair and both of them worshipped Lord Shiva ardently several times. ??? See through the biased purports and writings??? See downing the Shaivas? Can a realized being really write that in Bhagvatam??? What am I questioning here? Who put that in Bhagvatam? When was that changed? Clearly not Vyasadeva.

Namaste,

Why are we unnecessarily taking things out of context ? This is the story of Daksha Prajapati, insulting Shiva, and Sati entering the fire. Nandi curses Daksha and his guests, Sage Brugu in turn says these things about (curses) Shiva's devotees (of which Nandi is one).

Also, the saMskRt word is "jatA" i.e. matted hair, not just long hair like KrushNa RAm Arjun or Kunti

So let's read

nArAyaNam namaskRtyam
naram chaiva narottamam
devim sarasvatim vyAsam
tatho jayam udIrayet

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~


http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/en

SB 4.2.20: Upon understanding that Lord Śiva had been cursed, Nandīśvara, one of Lord Śiva's principal associates, became greatly angry. His eyes became red, and he prepared to curse Dakṣa and all the brāhmaṇas present there who had tolerated Dakṣa's cursing Śiva in harsh words.
SB 4.2.21: Anyone who has accepted Dakṣa as the most important personality and neglected Lord Śiva because of envy is less intelligent and, because of visualizing in duality, will be bereft of transcendental knowledge.
SB 4.2.24: Those who have become as dull as matter by cultivating materialistic education and intelligence are nesciently involved in fruitive activities. Such men have purposely insulted Lord Śiva. May they continue in the cycle of repeated birth and death.

Nandishvara curses Daksha and his guests from SB 4.2.21 - 26

SB 4.2.27: When all the hereditary brāhmaṇas were thus cursed by Nandīśvara, the sage Bhṛgu, as a reaction, condemned the followers of Lord Śiva with this very strong brahminical curse.
SB 4.2.28: One who takes a vow to satisfy Lord Śiva or who follows such principles will certainly become an atheist and be diverted from transcendental scriptural injunctions.
SB 4.2.29: Those who vow to worship Lord Śiva are so foolish that they imitate him by keeping long hair on their heads. When initiated into worship of Lord Śiva, they prefer to live on wine, flesh and other such things.
SB 4.2.30: Bhṛgu Muni continued: Since you blaspheme the Vedas and the brāhmaṇas, who are followers of the Vedic principles, it is understood that you have already taken shelter of the doctrine of atheism.

-----

So, neither VyAsDev nor any sampradayic gimmicks inserted the verse. It was part of Sage Brugu's curse.


praNAm

[Yogkriya]

Hare KRSNa

Just bumping up this thread, since many people have come with questions.
The purpose is to highlight the OP only.

SadAshiva is VishNu tattva on the other side of Viraj river.
Rudra Shiva is partial expansion from MahaVishnu's forehead.




Namaste,

Why are we unnecessarily taking things out of context ? This is the story of Daksha Prajapati, insulting Shiva, and Sati entering the fire. Nandi curses Daksha and his guests, Sage Brugu in turn says these things about (curses) Shiva's devotees (of which Nandi is one).

Also, the saMskRt word is "jatA" i.e. matted hair, not just long hair like KrushNa RAm Arjun or Kunti

So let's read

nArAyaNam namaskRtyam
naram chaiva narottamam
devim sarasvatim vyAsam
tatho jayam udIrayet

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~


http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/en

SB 4.2.20: Upon understanding that Lord Śiva had been cursed, Nandīśvara, one of Lord Śiva's principal associates, became greatly angry. His eyes became red, and he prepared to curse Dakṣa and all the brāhmaṇas present there who had tolerated Dakṣa's cursing Śiva in harsh words.
SB 4.2.21: Anyone who has accepted Dakṣa as the most important personality and neglected Lord Śiva because of envy is less intelligent and, because of visualizing in duality, will be bereft of transcendental knowledge.
SB 4.2.24: Those who have become as dull as matter by cultivating materialistic education and intelligence are nesciently involved in fruitive activities. Such men have purposely insulted Lord Śiva. May they continue in the cycle of repeated birth and death.

Nandishvara curses Daksha and his guests from SB 4.2.21 - 26

SB 4.2.27: When all the hereditary brāhmaṇas were thus cursed by Nandīśvara, the sage Bhṛgu, as a reaction, condemned the followers of Lord Śiva with this very strong brahminical curse.
SB 4.2.28: One who takes a vow to satisfy Lord Śiva or who follows such principles will certainly become an atheist and be diverted from transcendental scriptural injunctions.
SB 4.2.29: Those who vow to worship Lord Śiva are so foolish that they imitate him by keeping long hair on their heads. When initiated into worship of Lord Śiva, they prefer to live on wine, flesh and other such things.
SB 4.2.30: Bhṛgu Muni continued: Since you blaspheme the Vedas and the brāhmaṇas, who are followers of the Vedic principles, it is understood that you have already taken shelter of the doctrine of atheism.

-----

So, neither VyAsDev nor any sampradayic gimmicks inserted the verse. It was part of Sage Brugu's curse.


praNAm

Namaskar!

Thanks for the post.
Nothing's out of context. There is a clearcut notion amongst the Hare Krsnas that worshipping of Lord Shiva is done by people of low intelligence and those in mode of "tamoguna" etc. Many other such notions, based on one verse from BG with Krsna referring to Demi-Gods at a point. HK camp claims Shiva to be a "demi-semi-God" incapable of numerous things. Due to selective quoting, they very conveniently miss the same Krishna saying other things about Demi Gods or about Lord of the Lords - devadidev Mahadev Shiva.

Somehow Daksa's yagya incident has been quoted hereby you now.
We should understand one thing - Bhagwatam glorifies Krishna/Vishnu tattva.
You will not exactly find over glorification of Krsna in Devi Bhagwatam either. (apparently reason why HKs never read it).
Second thing is that I have lavishly quoted the same Bhagwatam where Lord Brahma himself glorifies Lord Shiva as the SUPREME MASTER of the Universe, beyond Brahman, cause of all cosmic manifestation beyond it and above the 3 gunas. Somehow, you glided past it and posted these daksa curses, as if to highlight the curses.
Another thing, if you really read carefully, I'm pointing out to the Hare Krishna cult of calling people worshiping Lord Shiva as fools - based on Krishn Gita (BG). Not on Daksa incident! And yet, even if we take up both these places (Daksa and Gita), implying that Shiva worship is for fools and low class people is simply a foolish notion in itself. Even if we may not go into various arguments, counter-arguments, quoting unquoting, simply observing the lives of so many great saints and avataras is enough, from Valmiki, Vyas, Vashishtha, Vishwamitra, Kanad, Pulatsya and the list goes on and one to Tandi, Lord Vamana, Lord Rama, Upamanyu, Krishna, Arjuna, Kunti, Gandhari, Shankaracharya,... and so on.
If we take your conclusion based on Bhrigu muni, then all these are atheists.
I may have less doubt that the very words of Bhrigu may have been tampered with. The Gauds have been busy re writing all these scriptures and re translating and re purporting them.
Question arises - was Bhrigu muni so unaware that there is no necessity of preferring to live on wine, flesh and other such things for performing Shiva worship? This also states the unawareness of Shiva worship itself. Not just that, but unawareness of Lord Krishna's ardently and earnestly requesting sage Upamanyu to grant him the great Pashupat diksha and initiate him into the Pashupat sadhna so he cold worship Lord Shiva single minded. Long or matted hair difference is insignificant really. Bringing it up as a point is not necessary.
Thanks.
Best wishes.
Namah Shivaya!!
Jai Gurudev!
YogKriya