Pointless debate about advaita

[tatvam]

Your system calls the wave(ignorance) as eternal - that is the difference. But the wave arises from the ocean, has no existance apart from the ocean, and dies out in the ocean. How could you equate ocean as ignorance? I guess you dont understand?

who said individual-self has existance without Brahman ? can you show me the proof from VA philosophy?

you guesssed I don't understand..and I think you know the truth..because you are a truthseeker ..right?

Thank you.

[TruthSeeker]

who said individual-self has existance without Brahman ? can you show me the proof from VA philosophy?

you guesssed I don't understand..and I think you know the truth..because you are a truthseeker ..right?

Thank you.

I never said that VA held that individual souls had existance without the Brahman.

I did not have to guess to know you misunderstood the position of Brahman being an Anjani. You have virtually equated Brahman to Ajana in this thread. The ocean created the wave, sustains it and withdraws it- would you say that the ocean is under ignorance or Anjana? There is no ignorance or plurality of selves outside the wave, and when you come out of the wave, only the ocean exists. ( hence the wave is termed termed illusory). Only those in the wave try to get out of it, the ocean was never in bondage at all. That would amount to considerable misunderstanding of the position.

[satay]

you guys can continue your pointless debate here.
thanks.

[tatvam]

I did not have to guess to know you misunderstood the position of Brahman being an Anjani.

who is being an Ajnani?

You are just pulling it.
It is not the problem of answering my questions..
what is exactly true..that is the problem.
You said only Brahman was there..and as per his will he became many and he came into prakriti..which is nothing but became an Ajanani..
So..GOD himself became Ajnani..and now he tries to become Brahman again..

tell me one straight thing..If I am Ajnani and GOD only became like me ? then who became as ajnani finally?

as per Advaita.."knowledge-self" is GOD and he only existed..then from where Avidya came?
is it second element? then where is Advaita?
Knowledge and avidya are opposite I think..then how the "knowledge-self" Brhman got the avidya?

please ...think it..it is not necessary to answer quickly..I want the truth.

Thank you.

[TruthSeeker]

From Advaita's perspective, or rather Brahman's perspective or the jnanin's perspective, there is absolutely nothing outside of Brahman - so the question of Ajnani does not arise. The question is raised by the "Ajnani", but if this the case, then why I dont see it that way...

To the more advanced, it is taught that the avidya is just your thought, and has no real existance, and when thoughts cease the avidya ceases. If you are not quite convinced, you might ask: But it cannot be my thought alone, since everybody else experiences avidya too. For such, people, it is told that the world is created by God, with all its good and evil. Now people ask, but why did he create the world of sufering? All religions draw a big blank here, becuase there could be no connection between an omnipotent God and any sort of suffering. So all such theories are nipped in the bud, including any dualist theories regarding creation.

If you reached this far, the only common problem concerning us is, why God created avidya( jagat), and from where? If you accept that God alone existed, and did not create something out of nothing, then the avidya must have come from God too - that is a logical and inevitable conclusion. Other explanations could be that God created something out of nothing, or that God just remodelled some preexisting matter and so on. Vedanta rules out the possibilities for something coming out of nothing.

So we must be at one page when we say God created avidya, from himself, through some transformation. So the only one question that remains is why did God do that?

No simple explanations can ever be given. Many monists view this problem as insignificant, yet some theories that are offered are desire, Maya, a show of prowess, Lorship, sport etc, and people take various views as to which is more appealing to them.

This is same as the chicken-egg problem. Which one came first? An atheist is not truly bothered about this question. One theist will say that God created the chicken first, and from it came the egg. Another theist will say that God created egg first and then the chicken came. Whicjh would you beleive? There is no scope to come to a conclusion. There is no way to go into the past and verify either of these.

The creation, and its mysteries are exactly identical to the problem. You are just offering an explanation to what you observe, but nothing could be proved. If you ever consider that God is omnipotent you can never reconcile with the idea that he allowed some suffering to go on in the world. The rest are just theories -- that do not really concern Advaita at all. However, to the wordly people, who still need an explanation to the phenomenon they around them, Advaita does come up with theories that match Vishsitadvaita - God created the world from his body, and the world and body are just conected to him in a soul-body relationship. Even this theory is not convincing to advaitins because, it still does not explain in anyway why God allowed suffering in the world.

So Brahman is not in Ajnana according to Advaita. It is solely a perspective from which you view things.

[tatvam]

If you reached this far, the only common problem concerning us is, why God created avidya( jagat), and from where? If you accept that God alone existed, and did not create something out of nothing, then the avidya must have come from God too - that is a logical and inevitable conclusion.


So Brahman is not in Ajnana according to Advaita. It is solely a perspective from which you view things.

Thanks for your patience...

But I have few more doubts, you said God alone existed..and avidya came from him only..ok..but as per advaita Brahman is "knowledge-self"..then how avidya came from him?

you said Brahman is not in ajnana..but it is a prspective from which I view things..but who is this I..who is viewing in that perspective? I should be the Brahman as per advaita..then why this "I" is viewing in that perspective?
did I make the sence with my questions?

[TruthSeeker]

You did, and your question was answered. Read again please...why dont you view this creation as a majesty of God, instead of ignorance, if that makes you feel better. Who is the ruler - God. Who are the citizens -God again,...

No one asked you to come out of this unless of your own wish, as you are indpendent, so "Brahman" is never seeking anything. It is just another thought wave that lasts for a while.