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Thread: Complete surrender to God

  1. #11
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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Namasté Devotee
    I have now read Yajvan’s excellent reply, which I would like to address seperately and Smaranam’s good response. Thank you for your replies.

    My initial post was to capture the thoughts of others as much as to address my own interest in worship and surrender. I wanted to hear it from both dualist and non-dualists alike, as to be honest I appreciate the thought provoking replies. The responses were varied and helpful, which is why I ask questions. With your kind offer to discuss I wish to try to explain my thoughts with use of lines from your post above as guides. I would be interested if you wish to pick up on this point below and I encourage criticism or questions should the reader feel they arise:

    As long as there is "I", there is duality ... & there is God .... as real as "I" is .... and there is a need to surrender .... as real as the "I" & God.


    You are absolutely correct. This is the perfect non-dual statement. So what is my point and where does it leave the apparent “I” (as each of us is this “I”, it is probably best to answer this from our own perspective rather than to assume it is just “me” that lacks greater understanding).

    Once the “I” is seen as nothing apart from non-dual Brahman should we really, for example, become a wandering monk and live from alms? No, because how can the question arise when it is known completely that all is just happening. As the effect is contained in the cause. Once this is known then there cannot be an ego separate from the whole which acts on its own cause as its cause is the greater cause. So what is meant to happen, simply happens. Perhaps a man who is a hard working business man receives grace and is self-realised (choose an expression you prefer). The business man continues to run his business and care for his family whilst knowing “Aham Brahamasi” if that is what is “willed” for him. That self-realised man continues to live his life, however he may no longer be living his life for him, but rather life is being lived. This does not imply passivity, but the passivity is the inaction in action which Krishna speaks of in the Gita. The business man deals with emotions and reactions of the business and customer concerns but silence and bliss is his nature.

    So there is no need for complete surrender for the non-dualist, as you correctly state. However there are still objects and all the complexity of modern life when we are not asleep or in turiya.

    You can't have "I", "You" & all being God-consciousness as the reality is in Turiya ... all simultaneously.
    .


    The reality is Turiya, but in the waking state there is still an “I” a “you” and a “God” and this needs to be understood.

    Once Bharman is known then the miracle is that being (sat) is experienced as an apparent “I” with a “you” an a “God”, even if on the waking state we can only explain these phenomena as “thoughts”. These are all experienced not only as the experiencer among separate objects but as the whole and part of Brahman from the Advaitin perspective. Likewise to say that worship or “surrender” no longer holds a role is to say that “I should become a monk and live on alms”, it is to imply an individual choice of selection and deselection based on my likes, which we know to imply duality. However, and this is my point, if worship (or any choices and action) arise then that is what is right, everything has its place. It is not that there is a doer seeking reward from worship, it is as spontaneous as trying to stop a falling glass, it just happens and already in that happening is the purpose and the justification for all existence. It happens in the waking state, which by its very nature has the apparent objects and subject.

    So the apparent “I” does just what it needs to do, including being an “I” and including worship if that happens. However the doing and the existence is different. To say to myself that “I don’t need to worship” is a part of the illusion as it implies that I am separate from my action. It is similar to if I say that without Turiya I am no longer part of the Brahman, which is not right. Do we have a choice on our state of wake, sleep or turiya? No, no because all states are non-dual Brahman and so all needs to be taken as relatively true. It all appently happens, but it still happens.

    As mentioned I am happy for criticism or feedback, so if the reader doesn’t agree, please say why and "I" am open to advancement.

  2. #12
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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Namasté Yajvan
    You take me and this thread further with your last post. In fact I am most interested to read this as it is a new perspective from the point of view of the original question and it is not as well explained in my copy of Bhagavad Gita, having since looked up your quotes. I am sure this reference to excellence is what Devotee Ji is implying in his last response by brining my attention to it and I hope my reply above expands in my initial explanation and does not imply otherwise.

    adhyātma cetasā is our self-awareness, knowing that all is Braham, we pay the greatest self-sacrifice by the recognition of this state of adhyātma cetasā = knowing the Self.

    If this is not known then we continue to riggle and twist in a world of ideas and conceptions. So simple yet so potent it could be easily overlooked. Interstingly I see that one can start at this point and also one can arrive at this point. In my experience one needs to do the leg work and have the experience and scriptural understand to both arrive and maintain oneself without distraction of thoughts.

    What is the distraction, why do we stray from adhyātma cetasā, knowing the Self? That too is answered by Krishna. So should one arrive at a point when this is known without doubt? Yes, because from an Advaita perspective we are already there but clouded by ignorance from maya.

    So what then is left to do?
    Last edited by Onkara; 08 January 2010 at 04:33 AM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Namaste Snip,

    I think I understand you a little better now. What you are saying is correct. The Self-realised soul can choose to indulge in action & yet be unaffected by the fruits of action. Nisarga Datta Maharaj is one such example who even after enlightenment (Self-Realisation) led an ordinary house-holder's life. However, it is very difficult for most of us, imho.

    My Guru ji says that Self-realisation gives you absolute freedom ... you don't become a deadwood after self-realisation ... you act in a better way as you are no longer attached to the results.

    However, imho, the greater question is how to attain Self-realisation ... anything whatever happens after that is not important. Or is it ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté snip,

    I am happy you are tacking in comprehension ... let me offer just a few points to fill in . This is to insure the knowledge is clear ( I think you have keen sight here, this is the reason I offer it e.g. you are 'ready' to consume more ).

    you mention the following:

    adhyātma cetasā is our self-awareness, knowing that all is Braham, we pay the greatest self-sacrifice by the recognition of this state of adhyātma cetasā = knowing the Self.

    It is important to note that this adhyātma cetasā is a personal/real experience and not in intellectual concept. I know you know this by what you say here : ' adhyātma cetasā = knowing the Self ' . Yes, knowing the Self means intimate personal-direct experience.

    Now why do I think this is worth re-confirming? Becuse of this insight offered by ādi śaṅkara-ji in his vivekacūḍāmaṇi ( 4th śloka ) says the following:

    One may read and recite (pahantu) the śāstrāṇi (śāstrā or scriptures), perform yajña (sacrifice, oblations, pūjā) to the devān ( gods), perform (or participate, bhājana) in rituals , worship deities, still liberation (vimuktiḥ) will not come even after 100's of millions of years, without personal (direct) experience of one's identity with the Self (ātmaikya-bodhena).

    Note the following:
    ātmaikya = ātman = adhyātma
    bodhena = bodha = knowing = waking , becoming or being awake , consciousness = cetasā . And we arrive back at adhyātma cetasā and Kṛṣṇa's wisdom, that is corroborated by ādi śaṅkara-ji .

    So the point is simple - direct personal experience... thus pursued by upāya¹ and sādhana¹.

    you mention,
    So what then is left to do?

    Based upon your explanations, I think you have keen insight to this whole matter. Let me then add another layer.

    What to do from a practical point of view, IMHO - withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal. These words are sūtras ( or stitches, snippets) of instruction offered by the wise.
    People ask, withdraw from what? Withdraw from the parts (aṅga) and experience the whole,(aṅgī); then withdraw from the withdrawal i.e. withdraw from that whole or aṅgī, and come back to the parts.

    Now what's this again ?
    Withdraw from the duality of life, the parts, diversity (aṅga) and experience fullness, bhūma (fullness), turīya¹ ( aṅgī ), then come back to diversity.


    For more information on this withdrawal see the following:
    specifically: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24421&postcount=6 ; Yet the overall string addresses turiya¹ and turīyātīta¹ (the 4th and beyond the 4th) http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312

    praām

    words

    • bhājana - sharing or participating in , entitled or relating or belonging to ; as a noun, a 'partaker'
    • sādhana - we know as spiritual pursuit - this word is defined as any means of effecting or accomplishing; any agent or instrument or implement or utensil or apparatus , an expedient , requisite . It also means accomplishment, performace; leading straight to a goal , guiding well
    • turya तुर्य - the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
    • turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past
    • upāya - that by which one reaches one's aim , a means or expedient (of any kind) , way , strategy, craft
    Last edited by yajvan; 08 January 2010 at 06:41 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté snip,

    .....


    What to do from a practical point of view, IMHO - withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal. These words are sūtras ( or stitches, snippets) of instruction offered by the wise.
    People ask, withdraw from what? Withdraw from the parts (aṅga) and experience the whole,(aṅgī); then withdraw from the withdrawal i.e. withdraw from that whole or aṅgī, and come back to the parts.

    Now what's this again ?
    Withdraw from the duality of life, the parts, diversity (aṅga) and experience fullness, bhūma (fullness), turīya¹ ( aṅgī ), then come back to diversity.





    Namaste Yajavan and Devotee
    Thank you for your replies. This is beautiful and profound advice. Thank you!

  6. #16
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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Namasté
    More than once I have come across the idea that complete and utter surrender to God is good. My question is have you or any one else you know taken that step and if so, what if any were the differences to your life?

    By complete surrender I mean that all concerns of satisfaction, job stability, relationships, family safety etc are some how handed over to God(s).

    My assumption is that although negative things may occur one is still convinced that these events are out of one's control and are completely accepted as the will of God. Does complete surrender mean fatalism in that case?
    In the layman's language I see complete surrender to God as equivalent with stop complaining about life. Dont blame yourself or others for anything in life. Take joy and sorrow equally and as the wish of God. If whatever happens is already known to the creator, the only two options we have are to accept whatever happens with equanimity or to detach ourselves from the false identifications with the body and mind that are experiencing life. By complaining about life or by trying to drive the life ourselves we have assumed doership which will lead to continued bondage. The former is called karma yoga and the latter is called sAMkhya yoga. Complete surrender is very difficult but surrender can be partial and can be improved upon gradually. Ultimately, true surrender or sacrifice or yajna is the yajna of the mind into the fire of Brahman.

    It is so easy to talk of surrender but so difficult to practice. We do not trust God to the extent we like to. That is why we insure everything , we go for health insurance, life insurance, job insurance and so on. In true surrender, God is the only insurance. It does take considerable spiritual maturity to be able to surrender fully. Surrender can begin only from partial and must be slowly built up like any other sAdhana. Complete surrender is impossible without vijnAna.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post

    It is so easy to talk of surrender but so difficult to practice. We do not trust God to the extent we like to. That is why we insure everything , we go for health insurance, life insurance, job insurance and so on. In true surrender, God is the only insurance. It does take considerable spiritual maturity to be able to surrender fully. Surrender can begin only from partial and must be slowly built up like any other sAdhana. Complete surrender is impossible without vijnAna.
    Namaste Sudarshan
    You hit the nail on the head here. A simile might serve well. This surrender is like a switch, it is almost a black and white decision from the outlook of the spiritual aspirant, one may accept God but what about our actions; "Should one just let go and surrender completely or is there something more that one should do". It of course is not as easy as switching on the light of a room and seeing everything clearly whilst dwelling in complete surrender to God. We may well accept that our life-span, body shape or our weath is out of our hands, however what about the small details which appear to be controllable by our very hands. Isn't it on the smaller daily tasks which we "loose confidence" and look to insurance, or feel we are the ones who need to take some control? To surrender that takes considerabel spirutal maturity, I agree. The question becomes how, and "how" implies a doer of actions, does it not?

    So does complete surrender come down to better understanding the karta or "doer and enjoyer" of the more basic daily tasks? From this do we need better understanding of the manifestation of the 3 gunas to explain our movement and moods or is there more to undestanding the doer from an individual perpspective?

    It is interesting and I do not claim to have all the answers

  8. #18

    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Hi Snip and other members,

    Umm for me i have realised that my surrender is total i.e spiritual and physical. so be it job, relationships, daily chores etc etc everything is in his hand.

    I have always been a rebel warrior especially when it comes to Him, and have always taken the road opposite to what is shown.

    But have realised that lately the more closer I have come to him, the more battles i loose to him. so much so that i end up admitting in front of him, You Win, I Loose.

    So i have conceded, You take the control, be my saarthi, much like Krishna was to Arjun and take me to where you want me to.I have nothing in it.

    Om Namah Shivay
    Har Har Mahadev

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    Re: Complete surrender to God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    In the layman's language I see complete surrender to God as equivalent with stop complaining about life. Dont blame yourself or others for anything in life. Take joy and sorrow equally and as the wish of God.
    Namaste Sudarshan. Good to be reading your posts again. I love the practicality of this. It's so true. Often I have pondered a direct confrontation of, "Do you believe in karma or not?" when complaining occurs. I have confronted myself in this way. Get all whiny and "Poor me, Why me?" etc. and then go look in a mirror. Its mildly annoying to observe in others especially when same is prancing about being the 'Good Hindu'. But that too is whining. To see others whining and not react at all is the correct attitude.

    Aum namasivaya

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