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Thread: Giving things up?

  1. #21

    Re: Giving things up?

    Quote Originally Posted by amith vikram View Post
    so the main aim should be to seek knowledge and understandig.when one gets suffecient knowledge and when it reflects in our mind,renunciation will be natural.its not like stop listening 2 ur fav. music because u've 2 give up things.just keep on discovering ur self wit an open mind.its best 2 be ur self and do what u want 2 do,and parallely go deep into the forest of knowledge as if its your hobby or somethin like that.
    Namaste

    Yes, what needs to be given up is the

    1. ahamkAr - "I am XYZ"
    2. mamakAr - "This is mine"

    Not necessarily your favorite things, but the attachment to that favorite thing , that means living in the world but dettached from the BMI, its doership, and ownership.

    However, if the favorite thing is too bizzarre, it may not help one come to a dettached state of mind, that is all. The dependence has to break.
    That is why it is said "accept what is favourable to your spiritual progress, reject the unfavourable".

    Also, the catch of truly realizing the Advaita is that one cannot get away with just about anything as harming anyone or anything is harming your own Self.

    If a realized person leads a controversial life, they are harming the spiritual progress of others around them.

    Also, offering things to Ishvara/Brahman/Self by means of thought , really means giving up the mamakAr or the illusion of ownership.

    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #22
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    Re: Giving things up?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté



    But one must ask, what is the illusion? The universe is real, I touch, smell, feel things, it registers in my awareness. We say that awareness is real, consciousness is real, and is the core fabric of this universe. But are we saying then what awareness perceives is not correct? There must be more to the story , no?

    One answer is the viewpoint of what advaita vedānta offers. Are their other valid POV's ? - of this there is no doubt. Ādi Śakara-ji's notion of illusion is you are looking at a world, a universe and you are not seeing the total picture - therefore it is alluding you as to what is real, full, complete.
    It is as if you are looking at a picture and fail to see outside of the picture . As if reality only lies within in the borders of the picture and nothing exists outside that frame of reference - that would be the illusion.
    That your awareness is stuck within the frame of the picture and you cannot see beyond this frame. That frame is the boundry of life and we take that to be all that there is.


    So, what is the illusion then? That the Universe is made of multiplicity and every-thing is individual things. This view say the wise is 'ignorance of the truth' . What is the truth then ? Advaita; advaita means a=not + dvaita = duality , duplicity , dualism . More about this has been disucussed here:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...8415#post38415

    praṇām
    namaste sir,
    i didnt catch your point.
    may be i am wrong?
    about illusion, what i know is this....
    what is illusion?
    The form is seen, the eye is seer; the mind is both seen and seer. The changing moods of mind are seen, but the witnessing Self, the seer, is never seen
    The conscious Self, remaining one, shines on all the moods of mind: on desire, determination, doubt, faith, unfaith, firmness and the lack of it, shame, insight, fear, etc..
    This illumining comes when the ray of consciousness enters the thinking mind; and the thinking mind itself is of twofold nature. The one part of it is the personal idea; the other part is mental action
    The ray of consciousness and the personal idea are blended together, like the heat and the hot iron ball. As the personal idea identifies itself with the body, it brings that also a sense of consciousness
    The personal idea is blended with the ray of consciousness, the body, and the witnessing Self, respectively -- through the action of innate necessity, of works, and of delusion
    When the personal idea melts away in deep sleep, the body also loses its sense of consciousness. The personal idea is only half expanded in dream, while in waking it is complete
    The power of mental action, when the ray of consciousness has entered into union with it, builds up mind-images in the dream-state; and external objects, in the waking state.
    The personal form, thus brought into being by the personal idea and mental action, is of itself quite lifeless. It appears in the three modes of consciousness; it is born, and so also dies.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

  3. #23
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    Re: Giving things up?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté amith vikram,

    Quote Originally Posted by amith vikram View Post
    namaste sir,
    i didnt catch your point. may be i am wrong? about illusion, what i know is this.... what is illusion?
    The form is seen, the eye is seer; the mind is both seen and seer. The changing moods of mind are seen, but the witnessing Self, the seer, is never seen The conscious Self, remaining one, shines on all the moods of mind: on desire, determination, doubt, faith, unfaith, firmness and the lack of it, shame, insight, fear, etc.. This illumining comes when the ray of consciousness enters the thinking mind; and the thinking mind itself is of twofold nature. The one part of it is the personal idea; the other part is mental action The ray of consciousness and the personal idea are blended together, like the heat and the hot iron ball. As the personal idea identifies itself with the body, it brings that also a sense of consciousness
    The personal idea is blended with the ray of consciousness, the body, and the witnessing Self, respectively -- through the action of innate necessity, of works, and of delusion When the personal idea melts away in deep sleep, the body also loses its sense of consciousness. The personal idea is only half expanded in dream, while in waking it is complete
    The power of mental action, when the ray of consciousness has entered into union with it, builds up mind-images in the dream-state; and external objects, in the waking state.
    The personal form, thus brought into being by the personal idea and mental action, is of itself quite lifeless. It appears in the three modes of consciousness; it is born, and so also dies.
    Your points are reasonable and a good overview of the perceived and the perceiver. The illusion surely co-mingles in what you write, as you define the SELF in the equation of experience and perception. The illusion subsides say the wise with the establishment of what the SELF brings to one's understanding of the seen and not-seen.


    Yet, that said, I do not grasp the offer of what you you may defining as illusion . Perhaps you can assist me with another POV or example or what ever you are comfortable with.

    I will also add a few more ideas to this string as smaranam has asked above, but will wait for your response first on this matter we are discussing, so we do not have too many ideas in-process and the chance for confusion to arise.


    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 January 2010 at 10:12 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Giving things up?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté smaranam,
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    Yes, what needs to be given up is the

    1. ahamkAr - "I am XYZ"
    2. mamakAr - "This is mine"

    Not necessarily your favorite things, but the attachment to that favorite thing , that means living in the world but dettached from the BMI, its doership, and ownership.
    praNAm
    These are the correct things to give up, yet to do this as a selection process, as a thought and not anchored in the actual experience of ātman (Self), one has missed the mark.

    While it is good to know I am not this, not that, this is good to know. Now, this must be complimented with the experience of self-less-ness. Note I write it in lower case self. This is the self of boundaries, of transition, of going, coming, etc. It is not that SELF that is pure awareness. This does not suggest this self is bad, it is just bound in the world of things, duality, multiplicity of things and actions.

    For us to hit the mark it must (IMHO) be anchored in Being, pure awareness i.e. the SELF. I use the idea of 'mark' as we are considered arrows (bāṇa) in the praśna upaniṣad. It is when the arrow hits its target , its existence is justified, fulfilled. Like that, we become fulfilled , without wanting, when we too hit the mark of brahman.

    Hence , we can entertain thoughts and ideas of brahman, and this is healthy, but it is when the arrow leaves the bow and hits the mark that its existence is fulfilled.

    So this giving up can be symbolized by eliminating possessions - yet the thing we wish to give up is the ignorance of not personally experiencing this Being, Self, brahman, and this comes with practice, with sādhana and with study. And this is where the whole conversation started, yes? What do I have to give up ?


    I can say with 100% confidence it is by bringing the light that the darkness is removed. It is not working with the darkness that it-and-by-it-self will leave. Like that, ignorance is not removed by working with it, but by bringing the full rays of Being in, ignorance vanishes.
    This is the intent of sādhana , to bring in the light - a bit more daily. For some it comes in swiftly , for others slowly. But it is the 'effort' here to bring in more Being, light, brahman.

    So now the next logical question - why do we always read, hear, discuss the notion of giving up things? Some give up activities, some leave their families. In the beginning the first to be given up are 'habits' which are not life supporting (healthy) to one's self or others, this usually is the first to go. This giving up is a simple thing - it is not having distractions, things that are not supporting one's intention of the arrow (bāṇa) to hit the mark. Less things, less management - more time for one's intent.


    praām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #25

    Re: Giving things up?

    How do you practice sādhana? What is sādhana?

  6. #26
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    Re: Giving things up?

    namaste yajvanji,
    yeah you were right,i defined the seer and the seen. that means you know where my source of info is from.OK
    considering only the illusion.,
    illusion has 2 powers-extension and limitation, or enveloping. The power of extension brings into manifestation the whole world, from the personal form to the universal cosmos.
    This manifesting is an attributing of name and form to the Reality -- which is Being, Consciousness, Bliss, the Eternal; it is like foam on the water
    The inner division between the seer and the seen, and the outer division between the Eternal and the world, are concealed by the other power, limitation; and this also is the cause of the cycle of birth and death
    The light of the witnessing Self is united with the personal form; from this entering in of the ray of consciousness arises the habitual life -- the ordinary self
    The isolated existence of the ordinary self is attributed to the witnessing Self, and appears to belong to it; but when the power of limitation is destroyed, and the difference appears, the sense of isolation in the Self vanishes away
    It is the same power which conceals the difference between the Eternal and the visible world; and, by its power, the Eternal appears subject to change
    But when this power of limitation is destroyed, the difference between the Eternal and the visible world becomes clear; change belongs to the visible world, and by no means to the Eternal
    The five elements of existence are these: being, shining, enjoying, form and name; the three first belong to the nature of the Eternal; the last two, to the nature of the visible world.
    In the elements -- ether, air, fire, water, earth; in creatures -- gods, animals, and men, Being, Consciousness, Bliss are undivided; the division is only of name and form
    this is all i know about illusion,and i am keen to know your view on this.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

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    Re: Giving things up?

    Quote Originally Posted by AwareConsciousness View Post
    I think the 'ascetic approach' or whatever you want to call it is inherently flawed. I think this stems from a misunderstanding of the whole process. Devotees behold their gurus leading ascetic lives and so mimic them in the hope of attaining their 'bliss'. But they fail to see that the ascetic life is something that develops spontaneously after awareness when all material attachments are transcended and when it is clearly perceived that such existence is seen as unnecessary for a joyful life. And so we have these religious people who torture themselves, practice self-denial and who are further from the truth than the dancing, wine-drinking Zorba (who is actually a Buddha). It is not necessary, in my opinion to renounce anything. All the great masters have attested to this: Atmananda, Nisargadatta (he was a shopkeeper his whole life!), Ramana (the direct path is as effective as bhakti), Osho (Zorba the Buddha), Chinmayananda. Plenty more...
    Asceticism makes both mind and body strong. Luxury makes both mind and body weak. This is why religion mandates some kind of renunciation.

    It is not suitable for everyone though, and I agree we cannot imitate the masters. Renouncing is not the key but nor is excessive indulgement. Nothing needs to be renounced ultimately and everything must be sublimated to the highest divine perfection.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Giving things up?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté Tirisilex,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirisilex View Post
    How do you practice sādhana? What is sādhana?
    First what is sādhana?

    Let's start with the definition
    sādhana - leading straight to a goal , guiding well , furthering ; accomplishment , performance ; as a noun it is bringing about , carrying out , accomplishment ,.fulfilment , completion , perfection

    Sādhana and how we have been applying it in the context of HDF posts is the spiritual unfoldment ( pursuit) of establishing Being ( ātman) as a personal and direct experience; sādhana = upāya = a means by where one reaches their aim.

    So what is one to do?
    The wise say withdraw then withdraw from the withdraw. We know these words are sūtras ( or stitches, snippets). So people ask withdraw from what? Withdraw from the parts (aṅga) and experience the the whole,(aṅgī); then withdraw from the withdrawal i.e. withdraw from that whole or aṅgī, and come back to the parts.

    Now what's that again?

    Withdraw from the duality of life, the parts, diversity (aṅga) and experience fullness, bhuma, turīya¹ ( aṅgī ), then come back to diversity. Another way of simply saying this is deep rest and activity of experiencing Being, silence, a 'pause' if you will bathing in Silence, then come back into your normal daily routine. It is sādhana + upāya (practice) , then we come back to our daily life of doing. The 'doing' then stabilizes the silence we experienced during our practice.

    What occurs over time , even our daily work of doing ( job, family, recreation) this too becomes sādhana over time as our awareness is groomed and honed. All things in time become sādhana.

    What's is going on with this? It is the cleaning/unfoldment process Abhinavagupta-ji calls out in some of his work and can be applied, he says:
    Just as by washing the dirt or impurity lying in the inner fold of a cloth, the dirt lying on the upper portion ( the outer folds) gets automatically washed or cleansed ; even so, by the removal of the dirt (mala) lying at the subtle levels, the dirt residing at the madhyamā ( central ) levels get automatically removed.

    Where to begin ?
    With a teacher, proper instruction - a competent guide. Look for the guide.

    What is this upāya suppose to accomplish?
    We dip into pure awareness then come back. Each time this is done, some purification happens, mala-s are being removed, but more importantly our attention is not on the mala-s, the impurities, we are infusing more and more pure awareness into our daily awareness. We are 'refreshing' the system, bring in more wholeness, fullness of Being.

    This is why it is considered sādhana 'leading straight to the goal ' of Being, Silence, Pure Awareness, brahman.

    praām

    references
    For more on this reivew the posts On Belonging to Everything : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=24223#post24223
    Also see Revisiting turīya for in-depth information : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Giving things up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirisilex View Post
    How do you practice sādhana? What is sādhana?
    Namaste Tirisilex: In the simplest terms, sadhana means 'religious practise'. It means setting apart a certain time of the day to do something 'religious'. Usually it would mean alone time. It can take many forms. Scriptural reading, singing bhajans, doing japa, doing puja, meditating, hatha yoga can all be incorporated. It can be for 5 minutes or 3 hours. It is up to the individual. The wise say it should ideally bed one at the same time every day, and daily, for best results. Its like a self-imposed time out, for spiritual benefit. So its entirely up to you.

    Aum namasivaya

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    Re: Giving things up?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Where to begin ?
    With a teacher, proper instruction - a competent guide. Look for the guide.
    Why do I mention this? Because ,
    • it's practical
    • It offers the shortest distance between two points
    • It allows one to ask more in-depth questions and allows the teacher to teach
    • It's a proven approach
    Let's say a person wishes to know ( in depth) about a subject. So you go to the library. You walk in , now where to start? So many books and ideas... where is the proper place to begin? The librarian may assist you and get you into the correct section, yet s/he cannot tell which books will bring you to your goal, but she is most helpful by eliminating 95% of your search by getting you in the right row or section.
    Now you look for the some one very familiar in the field that you are considering to study - this person tells you specifically what areas to study - but still this is not tailored to you .

    Then you get a personal trainer - the tutor. He or she assesses your abilities, your present skill set and takes you from there. Like at, the teacher with this ability becomes very valuable. They know you and the subject at hand, where the librarian only knows the book locations, and the person very familuar with the subject too knows the knowledge, but not you . It is when there is this understanding of you and the knowledge that substantial progress can be made.

    I consider HDF the 'librarians' and the 'very knowledgeable' - the personal trainer we are not.

    Now in the beginning you may try different approaches - what feels right what does not , this is good , but nothing beats a teacher. Having a map of the territory is wise - trying to get to your goal on your own without a map 'trial and error' is do-able, yet the time expended is time lost - and doubts arise : Am I do this right? Is this the proper approach ? Is this the expected result of this technique? We must remember , well begun is half done.

    praām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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