See, that's what doesn't make sense about Christianity, a psychopath can ask Jesus for forgiveness and still attain heaven versus someone who has done good all their life without accepting Jesus.
See, that's what doesn't make sense about Christianity, a psychopath can ask Jesus for forgiveness and still attain heaven versus someone who has done good all their life without accepting Jesus.
This is what makes me believe that Christianity is real! The message of the cross goes so completely against human nature that it can't have been made up by someone. Its almost too good to be true!Originally Posted by nekozuki
Human logic says that if you live a good life, you will go to heaven. Christian grace says that you can't live a good life, so accept that God has done it for you. Then we are free to try and live the most Godly life we can, all the while knowing that when we fail to get it all right, we won't have to come back and go through it all again until we do get it all right because, as God says in the Bible, "My grace is sufficient for you".
Salvation by grace isn't about good people going to hell, its about bad people going to heaven - us. All of us fall short of God's perfection. No one deserves salvation, and no one can earn it. But God as done everything for us, and is offering it to us.
We believe God isn't watching and waiting for us to try and fail, try and fail, until we meet His pre-approved standard of perfection regardless of how long it takes, like an examiner. Rather, He is reaching out, saying "you can't save yourselves. But I have saved you". He has done it all for us already. We just have to accept His gift.
This is the Christian teaching of Grace. I don't think its a flawed understanding at all.
Last edited by Tomoz; 04 September 2006 at 12:33 AM.
How does a tattva jnani reach that state? And who judges that perfection?Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
See, I would suggest that that isn't really grace. The reason why is because you have to work towards moksha. Maybe no amount of effort will lead to moksha, but a whole lot of effort is needed to reach the stage where no amount of effort is needed! So you do actually contribute to your attaining of moksha. Christian teaching of grace is that we can't contribute to our salvation. God has done it all for us, all we need to do is say "HELP!"Strict Advaitic theory holds that no one 'attains' moksha. It is always there, and you have been searching for it. Moksha is stillness, peace. No amounts of efforts can take you there. The only efforts we make are to get to the state of effortlessness. No Hindu or anybody else obtains moksha through efforts - it is only through grace, as you put it, and such grace is fully experienced in samadhi.
The stillness is the nature of the Self. But man is unable to be free of thoughts for even a moment, if he does so, he will attain moksha. Karma without desire of fruits, Bhakti and Jnana are aids to the process of being able to obtain the stillness where lasting bliss is obtained.
So the ultimate aim is to reach a state of effortless action and thought. In in initial stages, a great deal of effort maybe needed in the form of deliberate meditation. Such meditation practised for a while will lead into the state of samadhi, which is the ultimate goal of all Hindus, irrespective of what they are doing right now.
There maybe so many techniques that could serve as an aid to meditation, that makes Hinduism a universal religion - that is why Hindu does not insist on any specific method. Starting from idol worship and beleif in a personal God are all very useful techniques, because they all promote the idea of love and concentration, which is the very nature of the Atman.
We don't believe God throws away his children, rather we walk away from Him ourselves.You did not read me fully did you? Why would a God throw away his children if he loved them so much? Is that you would do to your child too, if he does not listen to you? In our case, the child is not even aware of his father, except for some minimal clues. He is not aware that he is breaking his rules either. I must say this is a deadly trap setup for the child.
But this would be the rarity, right?No Hindu says that countless lives is necessary. Advaitins do not even think that this space-time entity is an absolute reality, so the "countless" thing does not mean anything at all. If you transcend time into eternity, all this will just be a joke. You will find that you have been simply tricked by the Almighty Isvara.
Many lives is not more miserable than a single life, because we are not aware of the long journey. You also take only the present one. If the prArabdha karma is suitable. salvation can be obtained in that very same birth, sometimes with the help of a guru or even without. Sometimes God himself can become your guru, if you have reached samadhi in a former birth.
Why has the universe been created?
Why do you think God would want to trick us? A lot of the stuff that goes on in the world isn't very funny.
This is interestingAgreed. Christianity promises only heaven as the goal isn;t it? That can certainly be obtained by the grace of God, without any meditative process. But our ultimate goal is not heaven( which is tempoary according to us) , and if you are not seeking eternity, it will take a while to get there. Does not really matter to Hindus, as it is the inevitable destinty of mankind and every living creature to be one with the Atman someday - we are not bothered with what people think or beleive. Everyone is guided by his own divinity within, and it will not forsake anybody.
Stems from different philosophical positions, no point in comparing. In Christianity, the God is more like a human being with human emotions like love, jealosy, anger etc. We do not accept such a proposition. We find no reason in your God creating at all.Originally Posted by Tomoz
We reject that God did everything for us. In that case he need not have created us at all. Even if he created, he could have just washed the sins. Does/nt the omnipotent God have the power to remiove sins of anybody? Why only a select few?
The evil we see in the world cannot exist with an omnipotent creator and who is also said to be loving towards his creation. Either the evil does not exist, or if we take it as real, it must exist with his full will. Some Hindus take the former way and say that all you need is to overcome the Maya that covers your ignorance. Some other hold that God is just giving his children a challenge by hiding himself(self concealment) and asking them to find him...when it is a game like this , there is no room for "grace" in your way. If it is really the ignorance of unknown origin, it is even more unlikely that salvation would come by beleiving that somebody died for your sins. The only useful contribution I see from Christianity is faith, nothing more.
If this is how you want to beleive, you are quite free to, as long as threat messages are not used to mislead others.
Just another way of putting the same thing. How many times we have heard this argument before?Originally Posted by Tomoz
I am only asking this. A child walked away from God, what could a still loving parent do? Create a hell as an alternative? Why create that place at all, unless one is a saddist. Let the child be forbidden into heaven and allowed to continue here on earth where he loved...a Hindu can never understand this hell thing. Or he could finish off that soul, so that there is neither happiness nor sorrow. Why create a place of torture? How could even a reasonably thinking person ever digest such thing? We are taught not to do wrong even to our enemies by scriptures, so shouldn't God set an example to his creation?
The Christian "rebellion" is only a manifestation of the divine will - Maya Shakti, which creates "freewill" and "ignorance".
What is the cause of an earthquake that kills ten thousand people and maims several times more? Who is the culprit - is that God or man?Originally Posted by Tomoz
namaste Tomoz,Originally Posted by Tomoz
Thank you for the reply. My weekend is ruined in mundane tasks of life and haven't been able to respond to your post. I will in the days to come.
Just wanted to say that since christianity, islam and judaism claim that their 'book' is the only prescription to the TRUTH it is necessary to put these books under reason and logic's scrutiny.
For me the christian scripture doesn't pass even the simplest straight forward logic test. It seems to be entirely based on 'faith'. My question then is why would I jump in your faith when I already have the exact map on how to get to the TRUTH?
It's like you are on your way to a new place, you are holding the map and the directions provided to you by someone who has already been there. Someone else approaches you and says why don't you follow me. You ask him for his map but it doesn't make any sense to you. The other person tells you just have faith. How do you know this map is correct? He replies,"because it says right here in the map!"
Do you think any logical man would throw away his direct map given to him by his guru and follow this man on faith? Faith has its place but something has to make some logical sense.
Also, we are mixing up a lot of issues in our conversation. We are jumping all over the place from historic evidence of 'accepted scriptures' to 'concept of god' in christianity etc. Concept of god in christianity is the most absurd thing to me and it doesn't stand any logic.
Why would I drop the instructions given to me directly by God and listen to a christian's 'faith' thing since it defies all logic to begin with?
satay
You got that right man!. It is too good to be true.Originally Posted by Tomoz
All these are fine at their level. Btw, this christian message is nothing new in Hinduism. All schools of hinduism including monistic ones believe that the grace of God is the only method salvation. DIY Salvation, is never a method it's just a theory or philosophy for some schools. Dualistic schools which are majority of hinduism even reject it as theory and regard that by grace of God alone we can achieve salvation.Originally Posted by Tomoz
So there is absolutely nothing that christianity adds to much older schools of god realization beyond the basic bhakti or Karma yoga. As has been argued the position of christianity on grace etc is the very elemental level of hinduism. No hindu will deny it. But it is just the basic requirement in the path of God realization, not a complete path.
Uniqueness of Xianity is that you claim that God reserves this salvation only for Xians and that christ is God and his son. As you say both this points in Xianity completely go against human logic (well facists will recognize that this claim have some logic!!!) and common sense and is nothing more than blind faith.
Who judges that Christ was God ??Originally Posted by Tomoz
Great understanding. Too good to be true.Originally Posted by Tomoz
I will telegram you when I am on my death bed, and accept Christianity at the last minute.
Until that time, I will spend my energy in doing good works, doing meditation, prayers, converting other people into Hinduism and all these "filty rags".
Shouldn't matter because I will accept Jesus last minute and will repent - if a Hitler can be saved this way, then why cant I? My sins would be forgiven right? I have the freewill currently isn't it?
Then I look forward to rejoicing with you in HeavenOriginally Posted by TruthSeeker
Satay is right guys - this has gone way off the topic of the O.P. - my fault I think. How about you all post your questions on seperate threads? Might be able to keep track of them then as well
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