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Thread: myths and facts about advaita

  1. #21
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Namasté Krsna Das
    The response given by Devotee is fairly satisfactory for me, given the time lines and the references to Buddha.

    If we go further into the verses, I am not convinced this Mayavada is Advaita Vedanta. I appreciate that Advaita Vedanta has been called Mayavada, as this is the "hatred" on which Devotee Ji communicates his concerns.

    Why is Advaita hated and called Mayavada? My assumption is that Advaita explains the problem of superimpostion as coming from Maya. Maya is also begningless. Not understanding these two concepts can lead to a quick decision that Advaita is some how incorrect. Advaita is not incorrect imho. I am yet to doubt Advaita and would be happy to try to explain Maya's role in Advaita Vedanta if you believe this is why the above is thought to be Advaita Vedata? There are others here who are more qualified than me to do so too.

    Advaita Vedanta is not Buddhism. The above says Mayavada is buddhism. So my answer is that this Mayavada is not Advaita Vedanta.

    My last point still stands; Why would Lord Vishnu create Mayavada if it did not serve a holly purpose? What purpose does Mayavada serve if not for man's benefit? Is not seeing through this Mayavada the goal and is not the concealment caused by this Mayavada a challange that you and I should face if so? So how are we do to that?

    I am not defending Advaita here, as I do not believe Mayavada is Vedanta based on the above and Devotee Ji's answer.
    Last edited by Onkara; 11 January 2010 at 09:40 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    the summary of advaita:
    since it is me who should know about this,let us see who is this me:
    who am i?
    am i the body which is perishable?---no
    am i the mind?
    no,coz,i stay here when mind wanders
    am i the intellect?
    intellect is not on its own.
    when we feel from various senses including the mind and the intellect,
    the one which is pramana to all these is this conciousness.
    surely the eyes wont see and the ears dont hear,but this conciousness,which is ever existant,is the witness for everything.
    this ever existent conciousness in its purest form,i.e., devoid of rage towards enemies and love towards friends,the possesiveness,in general,is our true nature:-)
    diving deep in this respect,it may not only be pride,but still ego exists.suppose i am a hari bhakta.when i know i am a _ of _,i will either feel _ or _
    it cant be neutral.this is the ego.
    we can practically experience this.suppose i am studying some book,say harry potter(enjoying thoroughly), my parents pester me 2 study network theory.i express my contempt for intruding my joy.
    now,is this non living harry potter book capable of givin joy?
    no,the joy was in me.the joy cannot be satisfied by reading a book or any other material or any thing apart from me.it is like adding ghee to the fire.in fact advaita says,it is not the joy at all.
    yajnavalkya says: we likes other for the sake of ourselves not for the other's sake.we respect our parents for the sake of our parents which in turn is for ourself.like that,one may say i pray govinda or kailasnath,but he for ever satisfies his own self "I"
    like krishna says,verily this self alone is sought after by everyone,no matter what.
    advaita says:know this self,by knowing this,one can become pure in heart and intellect,throw away the deluded thoughts that this is happyness,this is not,and know that TAT TVAM ASI.you are that.
    you need not get moksha couriered from vaikunta or kailasa gift wrapped to you,but this knowledge leads to moksha,which is the complete negation of "I",by neti-neti.
    as you can see, advaita is staring right in your face!
    Last edited by amith vikram; 11 January 2010 at 10:41 AM.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

  3. #23
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    My response to Amit Prabhu and Snip Prabhu:

    Many thanks for your reply !

    Although, as of now I have not received any answers to my questions. But I see that you have asked some questions about the above mentioned verses. Let me explain this per my own understanding of vedic litereature, in accordance with the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition:

    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach a philosophy that conflicts the vedic principles. It sounds like a vaedic philosophy, but is actually hidden from of Budhist-Sidhanta.

    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach this philosophy because at that point of time, in India, people used to perform devotional service to Lord Visnu only for material motives and not for attaining Sudha-ekantiaka-prema-mayi-bhakti, devoid of desire for material gains and desire for Moksa (Liberation). In order to delude such people, and also to protect the swaroop of such Suddha-bhakti (avyabhicarini-bhakti), Lord Visnu ordered Lord Siva to spread this philosophy, because it is possible only for the pure-unalloyed devotees of Supreme Personality of GodHead to preserve the mood (bhava) of Sudha-Bhakti, not the persons having material motives or desire for liberation (meaning desire for 4 purusarthas).

    This answer is according to vaisnava school of thought. I just wanted to know that what is the response of advaita-vadis for these verses.

    I have not received any satisfactory answers as of now, but anyways thanks agian for your efforts to enlighten me.
    well,in that case i have alreasdy given you the answer,which is crystal clear.

    PS-no 2 things can occupy the same place.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Why is Advaita hated and called Mayavada?
    Because ISKCON though proclaims to be a Hindu organisation, has its view borrowed from Christianity. Has anyone heard a Hindu proclaiming that Shiva is a demi-God ? ISKCON has been trying to give Hinduism a color which is completely alien to Hinduism.

    This organisation has even manipulated Bhaagwad Gita in "Bhaagwad Gita As it is" to present all verses of Bhaagwad Gita which talk of Advaita & they call themselves Krishna Bhakta !

    The reason why Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gave Bheda-ABHEDA (Duality-Non-duality) theory because he found that the Advaitic Verses of Upanishads cannot be supported by Maadhvaa's Dvaitic philosophy. However, this theory has been again distorted by ISKCON & they have taken all Abheda part from Bheda-Abheda !

    I have no problem if they believe like this. However, they have no rights to show their superiority over Advaita when they are not even aware of Upanishads. ISKCON appears to be a desperate organisation whose members want to convert people to their fold as the people from Abrahimic religions do. This tendency is foreign to Hinduism.

    I have serious doubts that the verses Krsna Das is quoting must have been written and inserted into the original scripture by them to distort the Truth.

    If we believe what ISKCON members say i.e. attachment to one name & form, then what is the difference between their faith & Christianity ? Just replace the name "Krishna" with Jesus. There is actually no difference.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25

    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    Although, as of now I have not received any answers to my questions. But I see that you have asked some questions about the above mentioned verses.
    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach a philosophy that conflicts the vedic principles. It sounds like a vaedic philosophy, but is actually hidden from of Budhist-Sidhanta.

    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach this philosophy because at that point of time, in India, people used to perform devotional service to Lord Visnu only for material motives and not for attaining Sudha-ekantiaka-prema-mayi-bhakti, devoid of desire for material gains and desire for Moksa (Liberation). In order to delude such people, and also to protect the swaroop of such Suddha-bhakti (avyabhicarini-bhakti), Lord Visnu ordered Lord Siva to spread this philosophy, because it is possible only for the pure-unalloyed devotees of Supreme Personality of GodHead to preserve the mood (bhava) of Sudha-Bhakti, not the persons having material motives or desire for liberation (meaning desire for 4 purusarthas).

    This answer is according to vaisnava school of thought. I just wanted to know that what is the response of advaita-vadis for these verses.

    I have not received any satisfactory answers as of now, but anyways thanks agian for your efforts to enlighten me.
    Namaste KrshnaDas ji

    About Padma Purana :

    Devoteeji is right. These are puranas with tailor-made verses of later dates .... and later upanishads that cater specifically to one sect.

    It is said that there are several versions of Padma Purana and it has interpolations.

    Not only in that popular verse on 'mayavada' which is conveniently pulled out, isolated, out of context,
    There is interpolation on something about RAma's bridge (setu) in the Padma Purana , acc. to some.

    Let us hypothetically assume they were not interpolations.

    This verse is during Lord Shiva's conversation with Devi PArvati. Shiva is so engrossed deep in love of Krshna, that He says these things. The verses before and after should be read to get an idea of Lord Shiva's mood in any case.

    Remember how Krshna was teasing Rukmini - "O best of my queens, what did you find in Me ? A mere uncivilised cowherd , no good....." which made her faint , thinking 'Now My Lord is going to forsake me so He is saying such things' . (Shrimad Bhagvatam Canto 10)

    Now, won't it be silly and ridiculous to take Krshna's words literally and believe He was just a village cowherd ?
    Its the same with that verse in Padma Purana , which Lord Shiva says out of love.

    This is what I said elsewhere about such cases :

    With passage of time, poetic expressions and devotional sentiments of prema bhaktas turn into doctrinal statements and worse - sometimes dogmas. We have to be careful not to get into this Maya. "Time I am" says Bhagvan Sri Krshna.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #26

    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Namaste,

    Some BhAgavatam for you

    The msg - He, Brahman, Bhagvan, Parameshwar, enters jada prakrti and brings it alive. He alone is. Bhagvatam is poetic. Its beautiful. But we have to see the plane , platform and realm its speaking from.


    SB 1.1.2 bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś
    chidyante sarva-saḿśayāḥ
    kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi
    dṛṣṭa evātmanīśvare


    Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the Self as master.

    SB1.2.28-29
    vāsudeva-parā vedā
    vāsudeva-parā makhāḥ
    vāsudeva-parā yogā
    vāsudeva-parāḥ kriyāḥ
    vāsudeva-paraḿ jānaḿ
    vāsudeva-paraḿ tapaḥ
    vāsudeva-paro dharmo
    vāsudeva-parā gatiḥ


    In the revealed scriptures, the ultimate object of knowledge is VAsudeva, the all pervading one. The purpose of performing sacrifice is to please Him. Yoga is for realizing Him. All fruitive activities are ultimately rewarded by Him only. He is supreme knowledge, and all severe austerities are performed to know Him. Religion [dharma] is rendering loving service unto Him. He is the supreme goal of life.

    VAsudeva = one who is everywhere (does that ring a bell ?)

    Vishwam Vishnur VashatkAra Bhuta-bhavya-bhavat-Prabhu (VishnusahasranAma)


    Sarva idam.


    SB2.1.17
    abhyasen manasā śuddhaḿ
    trivṛd-brahmākṣaraḿ param
    mano yacchej jita-śvāso
    brahma-bījam avismaran


    After sitting in the above manner, make the mind remember the three transcendental letters [a-u-m], and by regulating the breathing process, control the mind so as not to forget the transcendental seed.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  7. #27
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Pranam Krsna Das ji

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    Snip Prabhu, the verses and there meanings are as follows:

    mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannah baudham ucyate
    mayaiva kalpitam devi kalau brahmana-rupina

    O Goddess, in the age of Kali I shall descend in the form of a brahmana to spread this Mayavada philosophy which is actually covered Buddhism. (Padma Purana)

    svagamaih kalpitais tvam ca janan mad-vimukhan kuru
    mam ca gopaya yena syat srstir esottarottara

    Make the general public averse to Me (Krsna) by some imaginary hypothesis from you. Also camouflage me, so that the public will be deluded gradually by desire for material advancement. (Padma Purana)

    Also, in the Varaha Purana Lord Visnu instructs Siva saying:
    esa moham srjamy asu yo janan mohayisyati
    tvam ca rudra maha-baho moha-sastrani karaya
    O mighty-armed Siva, please write books filled with lies, and thus bewilder the people.
    atathyani vitathyani darsayasva maha-bhuja
    prakasam kuru catmanam aprakasam ca mam kuru

    O mighty-armed one, please preach a collection of lies. Place yourself in the forefront, and conceal Me.
    I find the verses you have quoted are interpolation for several reason, one which was pointed out to you by devotee ji.

    Two, Madhvacharya never quoted this verses, isnt it strange, that he remains silent on this verse . If this verse existed during his time, instead of writing pages of refuting advaita, he would have simply quoted this verse and closed the case.

    And this one is strange that the lord who is Satva guna resort to asking Lord Shiva to mislead, then how is it possible to believe anything? If you take the position that the Lord misleads people sometimes, then it is possible that he was also misleading Vaishnava. How do you rule that possibility out? After all he said Bhaja Govinda did he not?

    And it gets even more strange, accepting the possibility that for some strange reason the lords colludes to mislead why would they go on to broadcast the plan ? Now who would believe such a statement either they are stupid which they are not or we are, having known the plan in advance still we get deluded in that case there really was no need for the lies. It is like a child announce to father, when he comes home, mummy has not cooked Pizza for dinner. Seriously mind boggles.

    Now my turn to ask, do you accept everything in Padma puran?

    How about Siva Gita?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #28
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Because ISKCON though proclaims to be a Hindu organisation, has its view borrowed from Christianity. Has anyone heard a Hindu proclaiming that Shiva is a demi-God ? ISKCON has been trying to give Hinduism a color which is completely alien to Hinduism.

    I have no problem if they believe like this. However, they have no rights to show their superiority over Advaita when they are not even aware of Upanishads. ISKCON appears to be a desperate organisation whose members want to convert people to their fold as the people from Abrahimic religions do. This tendency is foreign to Hinduism.

    If we believe what ISKCON members say i.e. attachment to one name & form, then what is the difference between their faith & Christianity ? Just replace the name "Krishna" with Jesus. There is actually no difference.

    OM
    Vannakkam Devotee: This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, yet holds a lot of truth. In my experience, individuals within ISKCON do vary. I have observed the following.

    The older a member is, the more likely they are to be tolerant of other faiths within Hinduism. Newly indoctrinated ones are the worst.

    Americans are less tolerant than Indian ISKCONITES or even those that have spent considerable time in India. Ironically, I find Indian Christians to be less tolerant than American Christians. There is just something about a fresh (read Born Again) person who feels the need to share his experience with all other beings on the planet. Part of it is just newly found enthusiasm.

    I have met some who respected my Saivism, at least in public. Even to the point of apologising for past ISKCON policies. I also know some who have departed from ISKCON for these very reasons. Perhaps after we departed they were saying, "Holy Cow, worshipping a demigod. How stupid is that!" But I didn't get that impression.

    I do my best to be polite with ISKCON members and accept them into the Hindu fold. But yes, some days its really hard when you get dogmatic views expressed. Obviously the ones who come on here feel they are part of Hinduism, or they wouldn't be here at all. I also see that when hard feelings do arise here on HDF, this topic is close by. Its village mentality at its best.

    Have a day of Love.

    Aum namasivaya

  9. #29
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    Namasté

    I have read many of the compelling POV's above. For me, I look to the simple view of this great darśana and offer the following.

    We know advaita अद्वैत means the following: a=not + dvaita = duality , duplicity , dualism
    Also - advitīya = without a second , sole , unique, matchless ( as in couple) from a + dvitīya a=not + dvitīya= second, couple, accompanied by, companion

    So , why such a big deal over this? What helps us better understand the value of this notion of this advitīya ?

    IMHO there are many reasons and I hope the members of this forum will continue to offer their views based upon the śāstra-s, yet one salient point for me comes from the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka. It simply says the following:  
    • Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality.
    • dvitiyad or dvitīya द्वितीय - 2nd or two , couple,
    • bhayam or bhaya भय - fear , alarm dread apprehension
      ( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
    • vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word
      and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' ,
      'truly' , 'certainly' )
    • bhavati or bhava भव arising or produced from , being in
    The implications of this truth is profound... we can talk of this if there is interest.
    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 January 2010 at 06:59 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #30
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    Re: myths and facts about advaita

    some tit bits from brihadaranyaka---

    Chapter IV—The Creation and Its Cause
    1
    In the beginning, this universe was the self (Viraj) alone, in the
    shape of a person. He reflected and saw nothing else but His
    self. He first said: "I am He." Therefore He came to be known
    by the name I (Aham). Hence, even now, when a person is
    addressed, he first says: "It is I," and then says whatever other
    name he may have. And because He, before (purva) the whole
    group of aspirants, burnt (aushat) all evils, therefore He is
    called Purusha. He who knows this verily burns up him who
    wishes to be Viraj in advance of him.

    Source: "
    2
    He was afraid. Therefore people still are afraid when alone. He
    thought: "Since there is nothing else but Myself, what am I
    afraid of?" Thereupon His fears were gone; for what was there

    to fear? Assuredly, it is from a second entity that fear arises.
    7
    Now, all this universe was then undifferentiated. It became
    differentiated by name and form: it was known by such and
    such a name and such and such a form. Thus to this day this
    universe is differentiated by name and form; so it is said. "He
    has such a name and such a form."
    This Self has entered into these bodies up to the very tips of the
    nails, as a razor lies hidden in its case, or as fire, which sustains
    the world, lies hidden in its source. People do not see the Self,
    for when viewed in parts It is incomplete: when breathing, It is
    called the vital breath (prana); when speaking, the organ of
    speech; when seeing, the eye; when hearing, the ear; when
    thinking, the mind. These are merely Its names according to Its
    functions. He who meditates on one or another of Its aspects
    does not know, for It is then incomplete: the Self is separated
    from Its totality by being associated with a single characteristic.
    The Self alone is to be meditated upon, for in It all these
    become unified. Of all these, this Self alone should be known,
    for one knows all these through It, just as one may find an
    animal which is lost through its footprints. He who thus knows
    the Self obtains fame and association with dear ones.
    8
    This Self is dearer than a son, dearer than wealth, dearer than
    everything else, because It is innermost. If one holding the Self
    dear were to say to a person who speaks of anything other than
    the Self as dear, that he, the latter, will lose what he holds
    dear—and the former is certainly competent to do so—it will
    indeed come true.
    One should meditate upon the Self alone as dear. He who
    meditates upon the Self alone as dear—what he holds dear will
    not perish.
    9
    They say: "Since men think that by the Knowledge of Brahman
    they become all, what, pray, was it that Brahman knew by
    which It became all?"
    10

    This self was indeed Brahman in the beginning. It knew itself
    only as "I am Brahman." Therefore it became all. And whoever

    among the gods had this enlightenment, also became That
    Brahman. It is the same with the seers (rishis), the same with
    men. The seer Vamadeva, having realized this self as That,
    came to know: "I was Manu and the sun." And to this day,
    whoever in a like manner knows the self as "I am Brahman,"
    becomes all this universe. Even the gods cannot prevent his

    becoming this, for he has become their
    Self.
    16
    Now, this self (the ignorant person) is an object of enjoyment
    (lokah) to all beings. In so far as he offers oblations in the fire
    and performs sacrifices, he becomes an object of enjoyment to
    the gods. In so far as he studies the Vedas, he becomes an
    object of enjoyment to the rishis. In so far as he makes
    offerings to the Manes and desires children, he becomes an
    object of enjoyment to the Manes. In so far as he gives shelter
    and food to men, he becomes an object of enjoyment to men. In
    so far as he gives fodder and water to the animals, he becomes
    an object of enjoyment to the animals. In so far as beasts and
    birds and even ants find a living in his home, he becomes an
    object of enjoyment to these. Just as one wishes no injury to
    one's body, so do all beings wish no injury to him who has this
    knowledge. All this, indeed, has been known and well

    investigated.

    Source: "The Upanishads - A New Translation" by Swami Nikhilananda in four volumes


    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

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