CONCEPT OF GOD IN ISLAM

[sarabhanga]

Just as there is no smoke without fire, there can be no spark or flame (i.e. Indu or Jiva) without the eternal Fire (i.e. Sindhu, “the ocean of Light”, the Atman or Brahman) ~ that Fire which always burns, hidden in the dark Waters, and surrounded by rays or arrows or reeds or rushes, the son of man and of God, just waiting to be found and nurtured by the select group of true “mothers” who will surely raise Him to the Glory that was always his rightful destiny.

All of these religious or philosophical themes are enormously ancient, and much of the legend of man (across many disparate cultures and many millennia of time) arises directly from such conceptions. For the destiny of human civilization was long ago determined by the true knowledge and sacred praise of the Fire.

I certainly have no wish to extinguish the light of Islam, for it is founded from the self-same traditions of vedic Hinduism (just as Judaism surely arose from a similar source).

Judaic and Islamic traditions both arose from the family of Yayati (and most likely some errant branch of the Yadava clan).

“There is surely no Indu without the Sindhu, and the Kavi is truly illuminated with the Dawn”

[sm78]

I think these posts are more suited for a political forum, rather than a religeous forum. I dont understand why politics and religion are mixed so often. If you have concerns with Islam and terrorism, the right place is a political forum.

You should possibly consider this forum more as a mandir where a number of devotees come everyday. Is this what you discuss in a temple - about destroying adharmic forces?

Why politics and religion should be seperated??
Religion is not just devotion to God but also guidance to life. Politics is the highest level of social life. This has been my question for a long time.

I get that the seperation of church and state is a western concept. Where did sanatana scriptures give such seperation rules ?

Ofcourse I have to respect the rules set up by mandir trustees ~ that's another issue.

[Skillganon]

assalamu alaikum saidevo,

Namaste Skill,

Do you mean to say that the discussions between Dr. Naik and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar were nothing but politics? Then why do you use Dr. Naik's arguments to prove your points? Or else you must a better scholar of Vedas and other Hindu scriptures than Dr. Naik.

I did not mean their discussion was political, I was refering to other members here and theri political statement on this thread.
I used Dr Zakir Naik, as a reference for my OP, and alway's has been doing it to bring the most concise definition and understanding of concept of Allah according to Islam.

All said and done, as Sri Sarabhanga has been establishing repeatedly and as Sri Sri Ravi Shankar has elaborated, the tradition of Islam does not just start with its prophet. Rather its origins are in the Vedic culture and hence Muslims should consider themselves as brothers of Hindus. There is no point in arguments such as Islam is the mother/father of all religions, everyone is born a Muslim at birth, etc., etc. because these arguments, as those who profess them are well aware of, cannot be proved convincingly.
Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti

I do not believe and that Islamic origin is in vedic culture, it is a flawed argument, anyway I do not wan't this thread to move away fromt the topic of the OP.
We can consider ourselve as brother's in humanity.
It also will be prudent to look up the correct definition of the term "Islam".

Salam

Skill

[atanu]

CONCEPT OF GOD IN ISLAM

The Most Concise Definition of God:
The most concise definition of God in Islam is given in the four verses of Surah Ikhlas which is Chapter 112 of the Qur’an:

"Say: He is Allah,

The One and Only.

"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him."
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

The word ‘Assamad’ is difficult to translate. It means ‘absolute existence’, which can be attributed only to Allah (swt), all other existence being temporal or conditional. It also means that Allah (swt) is not dependant on any person or thing, but all persons and things are dependant on Him.

Surah Ikhlas - the touchstone of theology:

Surah Ikhlas (Chapter 112) of the Glorious Qur’an, is the touchstone of theology. ‘Theo’ in Greek means God and ‘logy’ means study. Thus Theology means study of God and to Muslims this four line definition of Almighty God serves as the touchstone of the study of God. Any candidate to divinity must be subjected to this ‘acid test’. Since the attributes of Allah given in this chapter are unique, false gods and pretenders to divinity can be easily dismissed using these verses.

Thus, the ‘acid test’ cannot be passed by anyone except the One True God.
The following verse of the Glorious Qur’an conveys a similar message:

"No vision can grasp Him

But His grasp is over

All vision: He is

Above all comprehension,
Yet is acquainted with all things."
[Al-Qur’an 6:103]

By what name do we call God?

The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, Allah, instead of by the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with.

If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-Abba’ or ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-Ammi’, or ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam. Allah is a unique word. If you prefix tin before the word God, it becomes tin-God i.e., fake God. Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty. Sometimes, however, while speaking to the non-Muslims we may have to use the inappropriate word God, for Allah. Since the intended audience of this article is general in nature, consisting of both Muslims as well as non-Muslims, I have used the word God instead of Allah in several places in this article.

God does not become a human being:
God does not take human form:

Some may argue that God does not become a human being but only takes a human form. If God only takes a human form but does not become a human being, He should not possess any human qualities. We know that all the ‘God-men’, have human qualities and failings. They have all the human needs such as the need to eat, sleep, etc.

The worship of God in human form is therefore a logical fallacy and should be abhorred in all its forms and manifestations.
That is the reason why the Qur’an speaks against all forms of anthropomorphism. The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:

"There is nothing whatever like unto Him."
[Al-Qur’an 42:11]

God does not perform ungodly acts:

The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act.

The Qur’an says:
"Allah is never unjust In the least degree."
[Al-Qur’an 4:40]

God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.

God does not forget

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings.

The Qur’an says:

"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets."
[Al-Qur’an 20:52]

God only performs Godly acts:

The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1):

"For verily Allah has power over all things"

Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Allah is the doer of all that He intends."

[Al-Qur’an 85:16]

[center]

We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.

I think that is good enough for now.

Thanks

Skill.

Namaste Skill,

I have reproduced your post in full. Though you are correct in some aspects, u are mistaken in whole.

I am not going into details but I will point out the ultimate similarity and then put a few queries for u to ponder upon. Islam means surrender (am I correct?). And the highest dictum of Hindu Dharma is also Surrender. Sufis have highlighted all these. The differences and subsequent strifes exist in your ego mind and God who is beyond mind but who is also the creator of the mind is pure, ONE and faultless.

Keep the ultimate ONE in perspective please.

You have said that Allah is the Supreme creator, He is only ONE and does no ungodly acts. I request you to please contemplate if there are ungodly acts in the creation of the One and Only Allah then who is responsible? Why these perceived ungodly acts are allowed at all?

Reasonable thinking will lead you to know by yourself that your understanding of Islam is half baked and ungodly, since such a thinking is only finding Godliness in one place (that is in your concept of Islam) and ungodliness in all others. And this leads to killing of man by man. It is ungodly -- taking up a God-like role.

Sorry for the apparent harsh words but I assure u my words are not harsh. I possibly understand Islam in whole which u do not, since U see the world in terms of me and others.

Where are u following the dictum that God is One, beyond perception, perfect and supreme creator? There cannot be anything ungodly in His creation either. Ungodly is your thought that God exists separately somewhere away from you. Ponder genuinely what is the intelligent principle in You? Did you create this intelligence, surely not? Where from this awareness? And if this awareness only sees ungodly acts then who is the culprit?


Regards

[Skillganon]

Namaste Skill,

Salam

I am not going into details but I will point out the ultimate similarity and then put a few queries for u to ponder upon. Islam means surrender (am I correct?).

More correctly Submission to allah

The differences and subsequent strifes exist in your ego mind and God who is beyond mind but who is also the creator of the mind is pure, ONE and faultless.

My ego mind? OK, maybe you can clarify.

Keep the ultimate ONE in perspective please.

ok

You have said that Allah is the Supreme creator, He is only ONE and does no ungodly acts.

We all know God does not go to the loo.

I request you to please contemplate if there are ungodly acts in the creation of the One and Only Allah then who is responsible?

I surmise the people who are commiting it.

Why these perceived ungodly acts are allowed at all?

Because you have been given freewill.

Reasonable thinking will lead you to know by yourself that your understanding of Islam is half baked and ungodly,

Reasonable person will not make such a statement with half-baked understanding.

since such a thinking is only finding Godliness in one place (that is in your concept of Islam) and ungodliness in all others. And this leads to killing of man by man. It is ungodly -- taking up a God-like role.

So my thinking leads to killing of man by man? Woah, you must reached the superstate of conciousness to know what is in my mind. Are you claiming to be God by any chance?

Sorry for the apparent harsh words but I assure u my words are not harsh.

Non-Taken

I possibly understand Islam in whole which u do not, since U see the world in terms of me and others.

Woah, are you telepathic?

Where are u following the dictum that God is One, beyond perception, perfect and supreme creator? There cannot be anything ungodly in His creation either.

I do not follow your logic. Creation is not the creator.

Ungodly is your thought that God exists separately somewhere away from you.

Well his not his creation for sure.

Ponder genuinely what is the intelligent principle in You? Did you create this intelligence, surely not? Where from this awareness? And if this awareness only sees ungodly acts then who is the culprit?

I do not see your logic. Can you clarify please.

Peace

Skill

[sarabhanga]

I do not believe that Islamic origin is in Vedic culture, it is a flawed argument.

Do you consider the argument flawed purely because of your dogmatic belief that Islam cannot have arisen from ANY pre-existent traditions?

Or do you not believe the argument BECAUSE it is actually flawed?

If the first, then there is little more that may be usefully added to this discussion.

If the latter, then please provide some indication of the logical or factual errors that you have found.


If some misguided followers have departed from the true path of their Guru, that unfortunate fact has no bearing on the path of the Guru himself, which remains always true Dharma.

Allah has exactly the same meaning as Brahman or Ardhanarishvara or Naranarayana.

Allah is EXACTLY the same as Illah.

Illah was originally worshipped by the Ailas.

And Illah’s greatest devotees were called Ailabakara.

La Ilah Illallah is simply derived (with exactly the same intention) from Ila Ilaa Illellaa.

Namaz is Namas, and Salah is Salaa ~ and the “house of submission to God” is a Namashalaa.

According to Dr Naik, Muhammad certainly appears in the Vedas, as Narasamsa.

Narasamsa has exactly the same meaning as Muhammad, and Narasamsa has ALWAYS been a synonym for Agni personified as the sacrificial Fire.

The leader of praise at the ancient sacrifice was commonly known as a Kavi, and his devotion is directed to Kav or Kab (i.e. “to praise”).

The ancient Kavis are well known to have been followers of the Dawn, and often the “Morning Star” Venus, and (in the latter case) their principle day of devotion was long ago determined as Friday.

Mekka is just the same as Makara, the motive power of Illah.

And Muhammad is identical with Mahamada.


These are some of the important facts that have already been provided in support of the idea that Islam MUST be derived from an important (but now neglected) strand of Vedic philosophical and ritual tradition.

The Rgveda was definitely completed by 1,000 BC (and most of its content is much older) and all four of the Vedas were finalized soon after, so the only rational explanation for this list of “coincidental” correspondences between the Vedas and Islam (which mysteriously “appeared” in Medina in the 7th century AD) is that “Islamic” Dharma is only a late Arabic version of an ancient branch of Hinduism (the truly Sanatana Dharma).

[TruthSeeker]

Why politics and religion should be seperated??

You want to mix them or what?
Then you must already be a muslim.

[TruthSeeker]

We all know God does not go to the loo.

What is so ungodly about the loo? If it think it is ungodly please refrain from that here afterwards.

I surmise the people who are commiting it.

Why do you think the acts of people are ungodly? There are many disasters that take place in the world - an earthquake, a flood, a volcano...the earth could be hit by an asteroid that could kill everyone. Who is doing all these other than God?

If God could do ungodly acts through natural forces, why cant he do so through human beings? You falsely accuse others of freewill when you observe that God is abusing his freewill - he does not stop floods, cure diseases or anything here. Who gave your God this right to toy with people here?

[atanu]

Namaskar and Salam,

Salam


More correctly Submission to allah

See the flaw here, dear Skill? As if there was no absolute, eternal being before the Allah name was revealed (or came into the consciousness of some people)?

You are submitting to your ego concepts and nothing else, missing out the absolute eternal.

My ego mind? OK, maybe you can clarify.

If you find the person who wants to prove that the concept of God as per Skill is the best then you will know. Only you can find that being who wants to prove things to others.

We all know God does not go to the loo.

I surmise the people who are commiting it.

Because you have been given freewill.

Not so easy Skill. The One and Only Allah, the Supreme creator (who does no ungodly acts) has created this loo going humankind (an ungodly act as per you) for what purpose?

If going to loo is ungodly then why do you go there? And as You have free will please do not visit loo again since it is ungodly.

So my thinking leads to killing of man by man?

I did not say that skill's thinking leads to killing of man by man. Read again.


But thinking and preaching that Christ is the only way or Allah is the only way is sectarian and definitely such thinking and preaching leads to unthinking acts.

Woah, are you telepathic?

Better cut out the cynicism. It does not require telepathy to see through the ego act when instead of surrendering, one takes on criticising the faith of others, citing personal examples such as of Osho etc.

I do not follow your logic. Creation is not the creator.

Well his not his creation for sure.


I do not see your logic. Can you clarify please.

Peace

Ski

ll

Dear Skill, you need not understand me. Understand youself.


Allah being 'eternal One and Only', can the creation predate Him or can it be separate from Him? Being one and only one, with what material He created? Did He create out of nothing or did He create out of Himself? Did he change or did he not change due to the act of creation?



And I repeat my main question again:

What is the intelligent principle in You? Since Skill is not the creator of this awareness, who else but God could create this intelligence? And if this awareness only sees ungodly acts everywhere then who is the culprit?


Only self examination will lead to clarity.


Regards,

[Skillganon]

[quote=Atanu Banerjee]Namaskar and Salam,[/quote
wasalam.

See the flaw here, dear Skill? As if there was no absolute, eternal being before the Allah name was revealed (or came into the consciousness of some people)?

I suggest one read it this:

"Say: He is Allah,
The One and Only.
"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."

You are submitting to your ego concepts and nothing else, missing out the absolute eternal.

I am submitting my ego to concepts but missing out the absolute eternal?

Not so easy Skill. The One and Only Allah, the Supreme creator (who does no ungodly acts) has created this loo going humankind (an ungodly act as per you) for what purpose?

Human being do ungodly things, like eating. drinking, sleeping, going to the loo. God does not do such things.

If going to loo is ungodly then why do you go there? And as You have free will please do not visit loo again since it is ungodly.

Because I am not God.

But thinking and preaching that Christ is the only way or Allah is the only way is sectarian and definitely such thinking and preaching leads to unthinking acts.

Their is one God, and their is one path.

Better cut out the cynicism. It does not require telepathy to see through the ego act when instead of surrendering, one takes on criticising the faith of others, citing personal examples such as of Osho etc.

Who's Osho?

Dear Skill, you need not understand me. Understand youself.

I am trying to.

Allah being 'eternal One and Only', can the creation predate Him or can it be separate from Him? Being one and only one, with what material He created? Did He create out of nothing or did He create out of Himself? Did he change or did he not change due to the act of creation?

Creation does not predate him.
It is his creation.
He can create things out of nothingness.
He is eternal and absolute. Unchanging.

And I repeat my main question again:

What is the intelligent principle in You? Since Skill is not the creator of this awareness, who else but God could create this intelligence? And if this awareness only sees ungodly acts everywhere then who is the culprit?

God gave you the intelligence and awareness. People choos to do what they do, e.g. either you obey your parents or disobey.

Only self examination will lead to clarity.

Regards,

Thanks.

Best wishes

Skill.