Why would the Lord delude?

[Krsna Das]

Pranam krsna Das ji
Thank you for your time an effort to explain in details.

Thanks to you also, because I get an opportunity to go through the glorious verses of Bhagwatam, Geeta and Caitanya Caritamrta again and again. Krsna is sprinkling his karuna on me and he is making you nimitta.

I shell try once again to prove this verses you quote can only be interpolation, I doubt that you will accept even if proof is beyond reasonable doubt simply because you can not think out side of your box.
Let me make it clear so that there is no confusion Puran means
पुराण puraaNa adj. old पुराण puraaNa adj. ancient
it is glories history of Bharat

Even if you give a prataksa-pramana for this, I will simply reject it right from the scratch. Why? Because I know that anything which is spoken independently of the 4 disciplic successions simply does not have any value

(Please read 4 disciplic successions mentioned in Garg Samhita, you can search on google too).

That is why I asked what time point of time Lord Vishnu instructed Lord Shiva? to that you answer sometime between Budha birth and Adi Shankracharya

Fact, Sri Ved Vyas narrated this Puran well before Budha’s birth, this is enough as an evidence that the the verses are a later addition and not the original.

Sri Ved Vyas narrated this Puran well before Budha’s birth - Absolutely correct.

But let me add something he is also saktya-vesa-avtara of Narayana himself and so he is tri-kaalagya. You are forgetting this fact.

Two, Madhacharya does not quote these verse

He has not quoted these verses directly - that's correct. But he has refuted mayavad in his book, I mentioned in my previous post.

Three, Lord does not delude that is explicit in Bhagvat Gita

Lord does not delude - that's correct.
Siva deludes per his request.

Four, you say 4 pursharth which all hindu follows, are not desirable pursuit for some obscure reason, and yet you contradict again by quoting BG
sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja - Abandon all the varities of dharma and surrender ONLY TO ME (mam- ekam). You forget to mention the result let me remind you aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

Correct. Just like butter milk is always obtained as a by-product when milk is churned for getting butter. You are churning (doing bhakti) for attaining butter (Prema), but you additionally get butter-milk as a by product (Moksa).

Still, Vaisnavas disregard this Moksa to be insignificant than that of a mere pebble lying on the road-side. They want to perform devotional-service, even if they have to take birth, trillions of lifetimes.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu himself composed Siksastakam and he says :

na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye
mama janmani janmanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi

"O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service, birth after birth."

I shall liberate you from all sins (or bonds of Karma). Do not grieve.

So moksa is what Krishna gives yet that is not acceptable to you.

Yes Krsna reciprocates by giving Moksa, and we offer our unlimited dandavat-pranams to his Moksa, but that is not our goal.
We want atulniya-divya-prema.

Nothing else is acceptable to us.

Not considered, but fact he is God, Maheshvara.
He is Pasupatinath, God for all beings not just people in mode of ignorance, that is your misconception otherwise this is what Bhagvat puran says but unfortunately you guys just ignore the facts and are very selective.

You can consider him to be deva independent of Supreme Personality of GodHead - But this sidhhanta can be for you, but we reject this sidhhanta outwardly, right from the scratch.

The devas observed Lord Siva sitting on the summit of Kailas Hill with his wife, Bhavani for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisance’s and prayers with great respect. SB 8.7.20

We also pay our unlimited dandavat pranamas to Sri Siva ji Maharaj in the form of Gopiswara, but NOT for liberation (Moksa). We pray so that he can shower his causeless mercy on us, so that we can attain just an atom of vraja-prema , just like that of gopis.- Only then will we consider our human lives will be successful.

Anyway lets not make this thread Shiva V Vishnu they are both auspicious and they do not delude their devotees

NOT only that, both of them are actually parama-karana for all the auspiciousness; and there is no question of deluding the devotees.

Delusion is for those who are atiests/asuras, disguised as devotees - who are responsible for creating disturbance (updrava) in society.

Jai Shree Krishna

All glories to SriSri Radha Ksrna alone.

[grames]

Dear Ji,

I am not questioning the great Guru's status but all i said was, even such great Guru's didn't claim they are God or JivanMutkas. Just the sign of being humble is in fact noble and forgive me if i unconsciously thrown any offense here.

namaste.

Let us not abuse the names of our sacred gurus as points of contention of the darkness of our own ignorance!

If Devotee's question about pratyakSha pramANa is rather immature, grames's counter is plainly mischievous. We have not an iota of competence to question the jIvanmukta status of our gurus like the KAnchi seer or RamaNaMaharshi. If we do question them for our petty arguments, there would be no difference between us Hindus and the mlechchas.

[devotee]

Namaste,

So, all who don't subscribe to ISKCON's concept of God are actually deluded & going to meet their doom !

I find some similarity here with the doctrine of Abrahimic religions :

The Abrahimic religions create unreasonable fear in the minds of people, so that people dare not think rationally & question the mischievous propaganda being spread. They say that Only their concept of God is true ... only their scriptures speak the Truth .... all other gods e.g. Rama ... Krishna etc. are actually false Gods, incapable of giving salvation. The worshippers of those Gods are actually demons ... their act of worshipping is demonic. All these people are destined to go to hell !

In case of ISKCONites, it is almost the same story :

a) All except the ISKCOnites are going to get salvation. Krishna can be described only by them. Only they interpret the BG correctly.
b) All other gods e.g. Shiva, Ganesha, Ma Durga etc. are actually demi-gods !
c) People who worship those demi-gods are actually deluded. Poor people they are so dim-witted that they have chosen to worship those demi-gods !
d) The Advaitins are basically demonic. The are the worst of the lot. They are most deluded by Shiva at the "instruction" from their concept of God i.e. Lord Vishnu or Krishna. They are the most dim-witted people & are certainly going to meet their doom !
e) Advaita is so demonic that even if you hear about it, you are finished ! This great statement is attributed to a great saint of Hindus ... (& it has lowered the status of that saint in my eyes) !

May be I am going to hell. I am not afraid. I am not afraid of any false doctrine of any Abrahimic religions & that applies to false propaganda being spread by ISKCON !

Such arrogance, such racist attitude ... is foreign to Hinduism. It must have come from outside India & got mixed with our holy religion. I think if we consider ISKCON as part of Hindu Dharma then we must redefine Hinduism.

OM

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Krsna Das ji

Even if you give a prataksa-pramana for this, I will simply reject it right from the scratch. Why? Because I know that anything which is spoken independently of the 4 disciplic successions simply does not have any value.

What’s the point of you coming here on Hindu forum?

You sound like one of them who comes to doorstep telling me I am doomed.

I know even if Lord Krishna came in person you still want believe him if he told you he and Lord Shiva are not different.
These disciplic succession you speak of has holes in it that you will find impossible to fill.
You claim to follow in the line of Madhvacharya yet you do not follow his Dvaita.

Prabhupad could not agree with his god brothers therefore he split, if you can not agree amongst yourselves what chance any truth coming out from here?
I don’t feel I need to say anymore because it falls on deaf ears, but I will respond to other points later to see its fallacy.

Jai Shree Krishna

[keshava]

Namaste,

So, all who don't subscribe to ISKCON's concept of God are actually deluded & going to meet their doom !

I find some similarity here with the doctrine of Abrahimic religions :

The Abrahimic religions create unreasonable fear in the minds of people, so that people dare not think rationally & question the mischievous propaganda being spread. They say that Only their concept of God is true ... only their scriptures speak the Truth .... all other gods e.g. Rama ... Krishna etc. are actually false Gods, incapable of giving salvation. The worshippers of those Gods are actually demons ... their act of worshipping is demonic. All these people are destined to go to hell !

In case of ISKCONites, it is almost the same story :

a) All except the ISKCOnites are going to get salvation. Krishna can be described only by them. Only they interpret the BG correctly.
b) All other gods e.g. Shiva, Ganesha, Ma Durga etc. are actually demi-gods !
c) People who worship those demi-gods are actually deluded. Poor people they are so dim-witted that they have chosen to worship those demi-gods !
d) The Advaitins are basically demonic. The are the worst of the lot. They are most deluded by Shiva at the "instruction" from their concept of God i.e. Lord Vishnu or Krishna. They are the most dim-witted people & are certainly going to meet their doom !
e) Advaita is so demonic that even if you hear about it, you are finished ! This great statement is attributed to a great saint of Hindus ... (& it has lowered the status of that saint in my eyes) !

May be I am going to hell. I am not afraid. I am not afraid of any false doctrine of any Abrahimic religions & that applies to false propaganda being spread by ISKCON !

Such arrogance, such racist attitude ... is foreign to Hinduism. It must have come from outside India & got mixed with our holy religion. I think if we consider ISKCON as part of Hindu Dharma then we must redefine Hinduism.

OM

Your definition of Hindu is adviatic. There are many parts of (however you define hinduism) Hinduism that wont agree with each other or your theory and you may find it offensive if your immature and start calling it names.

The glory of of Hinduism has never been that all paths are accepted as true as you can see by debates between great acaryas. The glory of Hinduism is the fact that these things can be debated with out killing and violence. This is what sets Hinduism apart from abrahmic religions. Not the so called everyone is right modern neo hindu hodgepodge philosophy that some want to create under the banner of their vision of hinduism.

You automatically, brand people that believe in their sidhanta as being true and others being lesser as abrahmic.

Your points.
Point a. Not just iskconites - all that worship vishnu krsna rama or narayan will go back to his unlimited abode.

"Such material gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary. The worshipers of celestial controllers go to celestial controllers, but My devotees certainly come to Me. (7.23)"

BG 7.19: After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

And according to Krishna himself only a devotee can understand him therefore interpret the gita correctly. Not by mundane interpretations.

The impersonalists followers also eventually attain krishna but with difficulty

The yogi, who is devoted to meditation, is superior to the ascetics. The yogi is superior to the Vedic scholars. The yogi is superior to the ritualists. Therefore, O Arjuna, be a yogi. (6.46)
And I consider the yogi-devotee ¾ who lovingly contemplates on Me with supreme faith, and whose mind is ever absorbed in Me ¾ to be the best of all the yogis. (See also 12.02 and 18.66) (6.47)

B) Yes they are demigods according to the gita meaning lesser dieties. You may have a problem with the translation as demigod but you need to get over it. It denotes lesser gods. For a discussion on this sunject you can see both sides go to. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...?t=4649&page=5

Persons, whose discernment has been carried away by various desires impelled by their Karmic impression, resort to celestial controllers and practice various religious rites. (7.20)
Whosoever desires to worship whatever deity — using any name, form, and method — with faith, I make their faith steady in that very deity. Endowed with steady faith they worship that deity, and obtain their wishes through that deity. Those wishes are, indeed, granted only by Me. (7.21-22)

Such material gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary. The worshipers of celestial controllers go to celestial controllers, but My devotees certainly come to Me. (7.23)
Krishna describes the followers of these devtas as less intelligent. This is the direct interpretation from the verses.

C) See point b. This is what Krishna is saying.

D) They are unfortunate as they are absorbed in a more difficult path which takes indirect and specualtive meanings of scriptures. They are not demoniac as faras I know just on a slower path. There are gradations

The yogi, who is devoted to meditation, is superior to the ascetics. The yogi is superior to the Vedic scholars. The yogi is superior to the ritualists. Therefore, O Arjuna, be a yogi. (6.46)


E) Mahaprabhu did not say that advaita is demoniac - its your loss if your eyes see mahaprabhu in a lower status. He had great regard for sankarcarya but not the philosophy which he dabated.
mayavadi-bhasya sunile hoy sarva-nasa, “If one entertains the doctrine of illusion, all is lost.”

From tripurari swami
"Sri Chaitanya gave more credit to the Buddhists, applying the logic of “half truth is worse than no truth at all,” vedasraya nastikya-vada. While the Buddhists openly dismiss God and the soul, the doctrine of Mayavada does so covertly. Although speaking of God (isvara) and soul (jivatma), Mayavada in the final analysis denies the existence of both of these truths at the paramarthic (ultimate) level of reality. According to Mayavada philosophy, the material world is also unreal. It exists only as a dream of the imaginary jiva, who can realize that he himself does not exist as an individual or as anything definable (neti neti) by meditating on the illusion of isvara."

Mayavada is antithesis to bhakti in the end goal. You pray to the Lord then actaully realise you are him.

Therefore it is advised that it will spoil any real devotion to a superficial form of devotion in which you feel you become the Lord.

The neiti neit followers at most can get to become one with the brahman effulgence of the lord.

Vaishnavism stresses the literal meaning (mukhya vṛrtti) as primary and indirect meaning (gauna vritti) as secondary: sākshād upadesas tu shrutih - "The instructions of the shruti-shāstra should be accepted literally, without fanciful or allegorical interpretations."

advaita gets you to the point of what we are not but vaishnavaism give the positive spirtual aspect of the nature of the souls and its relationship with god on a spiritual level (Interpreted as maya by advaita)

I (Ishvara) am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness. (Bhagavad Gita 14.27)

I (Ishvara) am transcendental, beyond both kshara (the fallible, perishable world) and akshara (the infallible). (Bhagavad Gita 15.18)

[devotee]

Namsate Keshava,

Just one question : Are you a born Hindu ? You don't appear to be.

OM

[keshava]

Namsate Keshava,

Just one question : Are you a born Hindu ? You don't appear to be.

OM

Pranams devotee,
Apologies if my tone came across agressive in the previous post - wasnt my intention.

Yes I am born in a Hindu family. Born as a swaminaryan, went to local Hindu classes watched ramanand sagars ramayana and mahabharat several times (-: (probably like many here) , followed advaita philosophy while attending shaka and swadhya then became and atheist but belived in karma and re-incarnation (looking back at it sounds like bhudism) then came to Krishna conciousness. Was raised in an islamic area so very well aware of abrahamic religions.

Hope that helps.

[Krsna Das]

Pranam Krsna Das ji
What’s the point of you coming here on Hindu forum?

To associate with vaisnava devotees, and to share my own experiences with who so ever want to know about them, or asks questions.

You sound like one of them who comes to doorstep telling me I am doomed.

Your perception. Can't help you.

I know even if Lord Krishna came in person you still want believe him if he told you he and Lord Shiva are not different. These disciplic succession you speak of has holes in it that you will find impossible to fill.You claim to follow in the line of Madhvacharya yet you do not follow his Dvaita.

And that same Krsna came himself as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and gave the above mentioned sidhantas to us, and we are just repeating those. What problem are you having?

Prabhupad could not agree with his god brothers therefore he split, if you can not agree amongst yourselves what chance any truth coming out from here?

Split? what split? His gurudeva asked him to go to foreign countries to preach and he did so by establishing ISKCON.

I don’t feel I need to say anymore because it falls on deaf ears, but I will respond to other points later to see its fallacy.

You can respond in any way you want, but that IS going to fall on deaf ears - That's correct.

I don't think you have read point number 10 of my first post in this thread : [ http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5095 ]

All glories to SriSri Radha Ksrna again.

[devotee]

Namaste Keshva,

Yes I am born in a Hindu family.
Was raised in an islamic area so very well aware of abrahamic religions.

Normally born Indian Hindus don't have such strong views as you have. Raised in an Islamic area ?? ... in India or abroad ?

I am a born Hindu ... born & brought up in India. My understanding of Advaita doesn't come from reading something written by western modern Gurus but study of Bhagwad Gita & the Upanishads. And I can understand Sanskrit fairly well ... so I need very little help in understanding what the original verses mean.

Why am I telling you this ? Unity in diversity is the beauty of Hinduism. Your understanding of Advaita is flawed. It is not anti-Bhakti. No, not at all. It is not voidism, as some ISKCON members say. Bhakti is the first requirement to tread the path of Advaita.

Perhaps, you didn't read the Upanishads yourself. Please read it so that you can have a feel of Advaita Vedanta before you have such strong views.

It is not important what path you follow. That depends upon your Guna & Karma carried over from your past life. However, saying that Shiva, Ma Durga or any God is a lesser-God than Krishna ... Advaita is demonic & is followed by dim-witted people .... is certainly alien to Hinduism as we know in India. My parents were Vaishnava. I am a Krishna Devotee. My brother is a Shiva devotee. .... still I am convinced after reading Vedanta that Advaita alone is the Truth.

I am sure that if you find time to read Upanishads or read original BG in Sanskrit, you would never say what you said in your post.

OM

[grames]

Dear Devotee,

Did u distill out Advaita after reading Gita and Upanishad or read some Guru's commentaries? Very curious as you said you know Sanskrit also. Is it dictionary based? or do you have formal training? I would like to get lot of help with respect to a new sanskrit book i got from one of my Kerala friend. If you really know sanskrit, i would like to take your help.