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Thread: Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

  1. #11
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohini Shakti Devi View Post
    "A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective"
    what actually our sidhhanta is
    THREAD NAME: Hare Krishna (ISKCON)

    Following in this line . . . how can you say, 'if you hadn't have include that, what followed would have been totally different.' ?

    "tactful words" are palatable, but it seems like charitable fault finding rather than a sincere 'contribution'.
    Namaste Mohini: Let me explain a bit how HDF is organized. There are Forums, and then there are threads (Chapters within forums, if you like) The title of this Forum is ISKCON, but the title of the thread is "Lord Siva: A Gaudiaya Vaisnava Perspective"

    So I don't believe I was incorrect in offering a gratitude to the OP for his wording. I come here to learn, and so I read pretty much everything that is posted. I believe in something called Hindu solidarity, or the sentiment of getting along within the umbrella we term Hinduism. This is done through polite respect of other traditions besides our own. It is also done by learning about other traditions. I am totally with the OP in that I don't come here to argue or to demean or to insult other people's views. If the world is to be a tolerant loving place, the least we can do as Hindus is to get along. I am sorry if you find what I thought was a polite outreach of my hand and heart as offensive.

    Namaste.

    Aum namasivaya

  2. #12

    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Namaste EM

    Please forgive me for the appearence of offending you.

    That was far from my point.

    I meant to say that such a topic discussed with in the precint of a Specfic Catagory must not be constrained to advoiding the frank expression of its own orthodoxy.

    You post alluded to the 'neccesity' of being 'Politically Correct' in a venue that was reserved for adherents to speak openly and explicitly about thier orthodoxy Point of view.

    Please realize that I was pointing out that no apollogies nor concessions should bound a poster posting in the appropiately Titled Thread

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Mohini: No offense taken. Just thought I'd explain the difference between a thread and a Forum. I normally don't make any comments within the ISKCON forum at all. Yet I still read it, with an occasional response or comment because although there are Forums, we're still all in this together.

    I see everyone as Brothers, Sisters, Aunts and Uncles within the fold now known as Hinduism.

    Aum Namasivaya

  4. #14

    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear Krsna dasji,

    in Bhagavatam,Sri Shankara is described(by Brahma) as being the Supreme Brahm beyond maya-the combinational Mother and Father of the Material universe.

    Just forget all that.Come back to our siddhanta-the gaudiya siddhanta.The gosvamis's view of shiva is shocking to those who haven't read anything outside Srila Prabhupada's works.
    The great Advaita Acharya was Sadashiva.His wife,seeta,was Parvati devi.
    Advaita acharya is indifferent from Gauranga just as Sadashiva is indifferent from Sri Krsna.

    The Brahma,Visnu,Mahesa of the material world are guna avataras and are depicted(in puranas) as being subject to control either by Devi,Sadashiva,Krsna and Ramachandra.
    There is nothing baffling in this.

    However,the Sadashiva Who lives in the Spiritual world is completely equal to Visnu as pointed out by earlier acharyas.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Krsna can never be attained without the Mercy of Lord Siva: Lord Siva is called the highest among all the vaisnavas in Srimad Bhagwatam (http://vedabase.net/sb/12/13/16/en). Since Krsna cannot be attained without the mercy of vaisnavas, it is impossible to attain Krsna without mercy of Lord Siva. It is for this reason that some of our Gaudiya Mathas also have Lord Siva sitauted in the form of Siva-Linga, just like other temples.
    If this is true according to your sect, why do you not then worship Lord Shiva in your temples? Why do you not have a Deity of Lord Shiva?

    Regarding the 64 qualities of Krishna, what is the source of this? Does it come from any of the Puranas?

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    I originally requested not to post questions here in this thread, but any ways, I am giving the answer:

    We do have Siva-lingams in some of our Gaudiya Vaishnava Temples. What to say, Sivalingam also resides at the very birth place of Mahaprabhu, the Yoga Pith in Nabadwipa.

    I will post a photo of diety of Lord Siva in one of our temples in Vrindavan. We also fast on Siva-Ratri. I have a photo of Lord Shiva in my altar. Though that has to be placed according to some regulations.

    This Sava-Ratri (the one which already passed this year), I saw ISKCON temple organising a ratha-yatra festival for Lord Siva, where the raplicas of 12 jyotirlingas were seated on a large ratha and the krsna devotees were pulling the ratha.

    So you see, we also perform devotion to Lord Siva, but in a different way.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear Krshna Das,

    Thanks for very nice post and i am not able to stop myself from asking these questions and i hope you will not mind answering for the benefit of ignorant like me.

    In your message, you have mentioned that worshiping different forms of Shiva attain different destinations (either Shiva Loka or not sure the name but the Abode of Sambu).

    What are the differences in terms of their Sadaka between Sada-Shiva and Rudra-Shiva worshipers?

    Who represent Linga? (I am still not sure it is 'only' Rudra as i always believed Shiva Linga represent Sada Shiva and all His then expansions. I may be wrong but i am still curious to know Gaudiya perspective on this. I am limiting myself to my Vaishnava faith)

    So when you say Lord Shiva, you are in fact pointing to SadaShiva only right? Or does that also interchangeably mean Rudra? or some another form of Lord? Because you said, they are two "aspects" of Shiva or Shiva Tattva. Do Gaudiyas also believe in the "Ishwara" aspect of Shiva or Isa?

    I beg your pardon and forgiveness one more time as i raised questions to get more clarity.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Krshna Das,
    Thanks for very nice post and i am not able to stop myself from asking these questions and i hope you will not mind answering for the benefit of ignorant like me.
    Beleive me, even I am ignorant regarding these two tattvas - Siva-tattva and the process of creation of universe. I am still learning, and there are many questions which I myself am having regarding this tattva but unable to find satisfactory answers till now.

    In your message, you have mentioned that worshiping different forms of Shiva attain different destinations (either Shiva Loka or not sure the name but the Abode of Sambu).
    Yes different destinations. The abode of Sada-Siva is the expansion of Sandhini-Sakti, which is an aspect or Para-sakti and not Maya-Sakti. Therefore, this abode is eternal and located at the other border of para-vyoma or adhyatmik-akash. You can understand this clearly when you see the map of cosmos in ISKCON or our Matha.

    The abode of Rudra-Siva or Sambhu is the manifestation of Maya-Sakti, which is the perverted reflection of yogamaya-potency (that is why it is also known as Chhaya-sakti). Although Sambhu may or may not be a Jiva-tattva (ignoring the exceptional cases), but his abode is not eternal, and neither is his position, just like Brahma. The Jivas who attain this abode have to come back to this mortal-realm once there span is over, just like in case of brahma-loka. My understanding is that even considering the cases when Sambhu is not Jiva-tattva, even then the sdahakas of his, do not attain the permanent position.

    What are the differences in terms of their Sadaka between Sada-Shiva and Rudra-Shiva worshipers?
    Sadhakas of Sada-Siva worship him considering him to be a Vaishanava dear to Lord. Although he is Visnu-tattva, but still his "role" is that of a Vaisnava, who always keeps on discussing hari-katha with his divine consort, Parvati-Devi, who is none other than an expansion of yoga-maya potency. The sadhakas of Sada-Siva are vaishnavas, not shaivas.

    Sadhakas of Rudra Siva are pashupatas, naga sadhus... etc or simply called shaivas, who worship him as the primeval Lord. Since Rudra is the Saktyavesa-expansion, they do get the result of performing worship of him, but never able to cross the 3 gunas of maya-sakti because remember, Rudra himself accepts the adulterating principle containing the stupefying quality of the deluding potency (see my post).

    Who represent Linga? (I am still not sure it is 'only' Rudra as i always believed Shiva Linga represent Sada Shiva and all His then expansions. I may be wrong but i am still curious to know Gaudiya perspective on this. I am limiting myself to my Vaishnava faith)
    Actually Linga represents both - Rudra as well as Sada-siva. The difference results in the bhava of the sadhak, meaning the Sadhak is worshipping Siva as Sri Bhagwan himself, or worshipping him with correct understanding of his tattva. This difference in bhava results in the difference in outcome, though both of them may worship same emblem. We have Siva-lingam in our temples as well, and other temples also have it. But there is difference in understanding of tattva. This understanding brings the difference in outcome.

    So when you say Lord Shiva, you are in fact pointing to SadaShiva only right? Or does that also interchangeably mean Rudra? or some another form of Lord? Because you said, they are two "aspects" of Shiva or Shiva Tattva. Do Gaudiyas also believe in the "Ishwara" aspect of Shiva or Isa?
    Siva can refer to Sambhu (Rudra) as well as Sada-Siva, depending on the context in which the term is used. He is Ishwara, no doubt, but he is not "param-ishwar". So who is this primeval lord? - Ishwarah ParamaH Krsnah sacchida-nanda Vigraha.....

    I beg your pardon and forgiveness one more time as i raised questions to get more clarity.
    No actually even I am having questions. I will let you know the answers to them once I get them clarified.

    For example, one of the questions is - My understanding is that when Sambhu is Visnu-tattva, only in that case he accepts the adulterating principle, and in those cases when he is Jiva-tattva, he just empowers the jiva with pralaya-sakti, but I am not sure. Clarification is needed from some really advanced vaishnavas..
    Last edited by Krsna Das; 10 March 2010 at 11:19 AM.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Grames,

    I am putting up your message here so that we can continue our discussion. Your message is a piece of information for me, and hopefully for all others too.

    Its very true that there are so many confusing idea surfacing in vaishnava schools about the position of Lord Shiva. I have just few points to share..

    PanchaLinga represents SadaShiva and many Vaishnava Gurus did their tapas with this PanchaLinga. Do they worship Lord Shiva? I do doubt as they are very advanced vaishnava who lived their life for the devotion and glorification of Shri Vishnu alone.


    Can you please elaborate which vaishnava school are you talking about here- The one which perform tapas with panca-linga? I didn't knew about this. I am curious.

    Rudra is a Jiva and it is Shri who assigns that Job to the pious Jiva which has not much dispute.


    Yes, Just that my additional 2 cents - If any such Jiva is not there then Lord himself accepts this post by the means of adulterating principle (I am correct? Why I am asking is because there are some "flaws" in this logic like - Lord never comes in direct contact with maya sakti (ätmärämasya tasyästi prakåtyä na samägamah - Brahma Samhita verse six), how is it possible for him to accept tamoguna of maya? But if he doesen't do this, then who takes the post of Rudra, if the Jiva is not available?

    Antrayami is the pervasive feature of Lord Vishnu and only that tattva gives the justification of Lord being witnessing the actions of the Jiva. So, when a Vaishnava worship any form because of the limitations, he worship only the Antrayami which is nothing but Lord's gracious presence. ( Lord says, all worship are meant for Him only and being an Antrayami in everything in the universe, He receives every worship even if you worship a mortal).
    I accept this. But I am not sure why you have brought up this sidhhanta here?

    All names in the veda refers to Lord Vishnu primarily and when some purana or smiriti or even shruti vakya use the name Lord Shiva, Lord Indra etc. it actually refers to the Supreme Personality only. So, for a vaishnava, there is no confusion when someone say worship Shiva or other God as they know that they are worshiping Supreme Personality of God only.

    Rudra also worship Lord Vishnu and Rudra is subordinate to Brahma and Vayu.
    Oh yes, Rudra deva worships Lord Visnu - this is correct.

    But he is subordinate to Brahma and Vayu? -

    Actually i have heard opposite from my Guru Maharaja that only a Jiva who performs varnashrama-dharma duties perfectly for 100 births attains position of Brahma and a jiva who performs the occupational duty of brahma for 100 continuous births perfectly attains the position of Sambhu, and so Brahma is subordinate to Rudra. I think this is mentioned in Bhagwatam as well, but not sure. I will hunt the verse and let you know if I find one.

    BTW, what do you ahve to say regarding this?

    Of course Brahma is subordinate to Sada-siva - this is OK.


    FINALLY, I was able to hunt this verse from bhagwatam, 4th Canto, Rudra-Geet, where Lord Rudra says:

    sva-dharma-niṣṭhaḥ śata-janmabhiḥ pumān viriñcatām eti tataḥ paraḿ hi mām
    avyākṛtaḿ bhāgavato 'tha vaiṣṇavaḿ padaḿ yathāhaḿ vibudhāḥ kalātyaye

    “That person who performs his dharma unflinchingly for one hundred births attains the position of Brahmä. Those who have performed even more pious activities can attain my position, the position of Çiva. But a living entity born in an ordinary family who renders service to Bhagavän even for a very short time becomes a Vaiñëava and attains the supreme abode that I desire to attain after giving up this position
    of Çiva.”

    SadaShiva form is manoabimani Devata and who has dominion over all our indriyas. (Some replace this with Rudra but it is not true. Rudra has lordship over only one of the three Guna, Tamo and nothing more)


    OK, I cannot comment since I am not sure. But keeping your statement in mind, one question arises, the "vaisnavanam yatha sambhu" in bhagwatam is said for Siva or Rudra? If Sada-siva then why name "sambhu" is used? So we cannot interchange the names Rudra and sada-siva?

    SadaShiva is not annihilated when the Pralaya happens and He does not survive when MahaPralaya happens.
    I have come to know opposite, that Sada-Siva's loka is eternal loka in spiritual sky whereas Rudra's abode is temporary. Please explain more, I want to know.

    SadaShiva teaches the glory of Lord and i think you have already mentioned it. He is the Gopeshwara and He is the Ishwara as in ManoAbimani. Parameshwara refers to Iswara's Ishwara who is Lord Krshna.


    Perfect.

    Some say, Lord Anjaneya has portion of SadaShiva in him and combination of SadaShiva and Vayu made him the best of the Vaishnava who worships Lord Rama still being a Chiranjeevi.


    Yes, because Siva always wants to serve the Lord. During krsna's pasttimes he came as Bhim (?) and during mahaprabhu's pasttimes he came as mixed incarnation (advaita-acarya).

    If i come across more, i will share it with you and also please share with me whatever you learn. I am sure i also do not have complete knowledge about Lord Shiva in total.
    But you have more than me.

    If i mix Shavaites philosophy here, we both will be too confused so i am avoiding it.


    Yeah, who cares for that ****
    Last edited by Krsna Das; 11 March 2010 at 08:39 AM.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Dear Krshna Das,

    Before i type any words, let me assert and accept that most of my points here are very much limited to my ignorance and very little exposure. So, i would consider them mostly as mere "speculation" and it may not have much merit for someone who wants to know the Truth to the fullest.

    You asked:
    The one which perform tapas with panca-linga? I didn't knew about this. I am curious.

    Worshiping Lord Shiva with PanchaLinga is not just new to philosophical schools but it is one of the oldest tradition that we see from various Puranas and Ithihasas but the purpose and goal for such Tapas are all about knowing the Supreme Lord. (PanchaLinga in my speculation signifies SadaSiva). In Sri samparadya it is followed and still followed and in Brahma sampradaya, it is very much followed. Shri Vadiraja Thirta's tapovan still has this panchalinga for adventurous but spiritual seekers. I am also not very clear whether anyone that get initiated in this sampradayas can do this kind of Tapas or it is only for the Yatis. The later vaishnava schools are in to pure Bhava vritti and i am not sure whether they are in to Tapas or meditation.

    Lord becoming Rudra is very new to me and i am not sure if there are any scriptural evidence to support it. If your Guru says so, it must be True. Rudra himself is not Tama but he is controller of that Tama or in other words, he gets lordship over this particular guna. To attain that post/designation, the Jiva has to be very pious and logically such soul will not have any Tamo to begin with and that particular jiva gets the highest mercy of Shri.

    About Antrayami:
    I accept this. But I am not sure why you have brought up this sidhhanta here?

    The very reason why i mentioned it here is, the worshiper of Lord Shiva or Rudra etc. should know this Antrayami clearly so that they can get maximum boon/benefit from such worship. Forgetting the Antrayami in them will make your worship materialistic.

    You said:
    But he is subordinate to Brahma and Vayu?

    In the Rujutva, the position of Rudra is not mentioned meaning that this designation is not progressive for any particular Jiva and in
    AmbriNIsukta Shri says,

    yaM kAmaye tamtamugraM kRiNomi

    So 'Rudra' designation is like a boon from Shri for some pious noble jiva. The Rujutva is much more pious and they are very close to Shri Hari and they are very special that they will always remember Shri Hari at all time. So, with that specialization, Rujus have much higher status in terms of their knowledge and devotion towards Lord and Rudra is like a LKG kid in front of Rujus where he has to accumulate the knowledge and devotion towards Lord to become Sesha. ( Rujus are very close in concept with the Nitya Sooris of Shri Sampradaya). Brahma is the highest Ruju and Vayu Latavya follows them. (Vayu incarnated as Shri Madhva and Latavya is the messenger between Rukmini and Shri Krshna and who came to the Vaishnava tradition as Shri VadiRaja). Nithya Sooris incarnated as the famous Alwars of Sri Sampradaya and they have established the Vaishnava-dharma ideals so long ago.

    Ruju's promotion has different formula and it is different for Rujus and for a manusha (ordinary human). Brahma gets his completeness after 200 kalpa and ordinary jiva gets his completeness after just one kalpa. (i used the term completeness as it is more appropriate than moksha as moksha is not the goal for these type of Sadana or Sadaka). Brahma never becomes Rudra and i will sincerely doubt that as none of the Vaishnava sampradaya accept that. ( Brahma creates Rudra - Sri Samparaya 100% accept it directly... Brahma Sampradya accepts it as, it is a Jiva who Brahma creates becomes Rudra by the grace of Shri). Attaining the position of Brahma by 100 births by a ordinary jiva is something very new to me and also it will be too confusing as which one of the jiva who gets 100 birth will get to that position? Please let me know if any verse in SB supports such idea. ( If it is 100 kalpa, then Lord Grace will make that Jiva very special and can promote that jiva to Brahma pada but 100 birth is with in the limit of one brahma kalpa and i still require more information to accept this as possibility. Please ask your Gurudeva for more clarity). SB 4.24.29 Also i am wondering where from you got this translation? It doesn't look like Srila Prabupada's and he has a lot more explanation in the purport of this particular verse. (It is also mentioned herein that whoever executes his occupational duty (sva-dharma) for one hundred births (for instance, if a brāhmaṇa continues to act as a brāhmaṇa) becomes eligible for promotion to Brahmaloka, the planet where Lord Brahmā lives. There is also a planet called Śivaloka, or Sadāśivaloka, which is situated in a marginal position between the spiritual and material worlds. If, after being situated in Brahmaloka, one becomes more qualified, he is promoted to Sadāśivaloka. Similarly, when one becomes even more qualified, he can attain the Vaikuṇṭhalokas.)

    So it is not about becoming Brahma but attaining the BrahmaLoka. I hope this clears a little clumsy cloud over my head.

    Shiva-Tattva

    As you said, Siva Tattva includes Rudra but the referent Sambu can refer either SadaShiva or Rudra based on the context. Rudra is still learning about Vishnu Tattva and SadaShiva is already Vishnu Tattva so that clarifies the context. ( Vaishnavam Yatha Sambhu can only indicate SadaShiva and not the learning incomplete Rudra)

    About Shiva-Loka
    I have come to know opposite, that Sada-Siva's loka is eternal loka in spiritual sky whereas Rudra's abode is temporary. Please explain more, I want to know.

    ShivaLoka is marginal and not eternal . Its in between (which is situated in a marginal position between the spiritual and material worlds). I hope you know the difference between Pralaya and MahaPralaya.

    The Krshna on the banyan leaf is the only one left after MahaPralaya as per vaishnava faith. Just attaching that beautilful Kannan on BanyanLeaf.


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