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Thread: Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

  1. #21
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Dear Krshna Das,

    Before i type any words, let me assert and accept that most of my points here are very much limited to my ignorance and very little exposure. So, i would consider them mostly as mere "speculation" and it may not have much merit for someone who wants to know the Truth to the fullest.
    That is why we say, vaishnavas are humle.

    You asked:
    The one which perform tapas with panca-linga? I didn't knew about this. I am curious.

    Worshiping Lord Shiva with PanchaLinga is not just new to philosophical schools but it is one of the oldest tradition that we see from various Puranas and Ithihasas but the purpose and goal for such Tapas are all about knowing the Supreme Lord. (PanchaLinga in my speculation signifies SadaSiva). In Sri samparadya it is followed and still followed and in Brahma sampradaya, it is very much followed. Shri Vadiraja Thirta's tapovan still has this panchalinga for adventurous but spiritual seekers. I am also not very clear whether anyone that get initiated in this sampradayas can do this kind of Tapas or it is only for the Yatis. The later vaishnava schools are in to pure Bhava vritti and i am not sure whether they are in to Tapas or meditation.
    I must accept that this is new to me. As far as GV is concerned, there is no place for any such tapas for Siva, though we have a place for Bhava-vrtti for his as highest of vaishnavas. (again taking into account my ignorance)

    Lord becoming Rudra is very new to me and i am not sure if there are any scriptural evidence to support it. If your Guru says so, it must be True.
    Yes, this sidhhanta I have read in Siva-tattva, Sri Bhagwat-amrita-kana and in Brahma-samhita commentary given by my Guru Maharaj, and I accept it as it is.

    Rudra himself is not Tama but he is controller of that Tama or in other words, he gets lordship over this particular guna. To attain that post/designation, the Jiva has to be very pious and logically such soul will not have any Tamo to begin with and that particular jiva gets the highest mercy of Shri.
    This is correct. I don't differ to a slightest degree.

    About Antrayami:
    I accept this. But I am not sure why you have brought up this sidhhanta here?

    The very reason why i mentioned it here is, the worshiper of Lord Shiva or Rudra etc. should know this Antrayami clearly so that they can get maximum boon/benefit from such worship. Forgetting the Antrayami in them will make your worship materialistic.
    Fine. Antaryami is the all pervading feature or permatman present in them.

    You said:
    But he is subordinate to Brahma and Vayu?

    In the Rujutva, the position of Rudra is not mentioned meaning that this designation is not progressive for any particular Jiva and in
    AmbriNIsukta Shri says,

    yaM kAmaye tamtamugraM kRiNomi

    So 'Rudra' designation is like a boon from Shri for some pious noble jiva. The Rujutva is much more pious and they are very close to Shri Hari and they are very special that they will always remember Shri Hari at all time. So, with that specialization, Rujus have much higher status in terms of their knowledge and devotion towards Lord and Rudra is like a LKG kid in front of Rujus where he has to accumulate the knowledge and devotion towards Lord to become Sesha. ( Rujus are very close in concept with the Nitya Sooris of Shri Sampradaya). Brahma is the highest Ruju and Vayu Latavya follows them. (Vayu incarnated as Shri Madhva and Latavya is the messenger between Rukmini and Shri Krshna and who came to the Vaishnava tradition as Shri VadiRaja). Nithya Sooris incarnated as the famous Alwars of Sri Sampradaya and they have established the Vaishnava-dharma ideals so long ago.
    This sidhhanta is related to Sri Sampradaya? This is all very new for me.

    Ruju's promotion has different formula and it is different for Rujus and for a manusha (ordinary human). Brahma gets his completeness after 200 kalpa and ordinary jiva gets his completeness after just one kalpa. (i used the term completeness as it is more appropriate than moksha as moksha is not the goal for these type of Sadana or Sadaka).
    ....

    Brahma never becomes Rudra and i will sincerely doubt that as none of the Vaishnava sampradaya accept that. ( Brahma creates Rudra - Sri Samparaya 100% accept it directly... Brahma Sampradya accepts it as, it is a Jiva who Brahma creates becomes Rudra by the grace of Shri).
    I have also read this somewhere that Brahma manifests Rudra but not remembering what was the source. Though in Brahma Samhita, it is mentioned clearly that he is born of the Maha-Visnu. Pretty confusing...

    Attaining the position of Brahma by 100 births by a ordinary jiva is something very new to me and also it will be too confusing as which one of the jiva who gets 100 birth will get to that position? Please let me know if any verse in SB supports such idea. ( If it is 100 kalpa, then Lord Grace will make that Jiva very special and can promote that jiva to Brahma pada but 100 birth is with in the limit of one brahma kalpa and i still require more information to accept this as possibility. Please ask your Gurudeva for more clarity).
    Yes, but this is what I have understood after reading some of his books (or misunderstood, don't know). I will let you know some sources, after hunting for them.

    SB 4.24.29 Also i am wondering where from you got this translation? It doesn't look like Srila Prabupada's and he has a lot more explanation in the purport of this particular verse. (It is also mentioned herein that whoever executes his occupational duty (sva-dharma) for one hundred births (for instance, if a brāhmaṇa continues to act as a brāhmaṇa) becomes eligible for promotion to Brahmaloka, the planet where Lord Brahmā lives. There is also a planet called Śivaloka, or Sadāśivaloka, which is situated in a marginal position between the spiritual and material worlds. If, after being situated in Brahmaloka, one becomes more qualified, he is promoted to Sadāśivaloka. Similarly, when one becomes even more qualified, he can attain the Vaikuṇṭhalokas.)
    Yes this transalation was given by my Maharaj in his book Brahma Samhita, it is not Prabhupadas. I will get this clarified from somebody.

    So it is not about becoming Brahma but attaining the BrahmaLoka. I hope this clears a little clumsy cloud over my head.
    Shiva-Tattva

    As you said, Siva Tattva includes Rudra but the referent Sambu can refer either SadaShiva or Rudra based on the context. Rudra is still learning about Vishnu Tattva and SadaShiva is already Vishnu Tattva so that clarifies the context. ( Vaishnavam Yatha Sambhu can only indicate SadaShiva and not the learning incomplete Rudra)
    That is what my understanding goes.

    About Shiva-Loka
    I have come to know opposite, that Sada-Siva's loka is eternal loka in spiritual sky whereas Rudra's abode is temporary. Please explain more, I want to know.

    ShivaLoka is marginal and not eternal . Its in between (which is situated in a marginal position between the spiritual and material worlds). I hope you know the difference between Pralaya and MahaPralaya.
    Point to be noted. I will study this point further and get some information, so we can discuss further.

    The Krshna on the banyan leaf is the only one left after MahaPralaya as per vaishnava faith. Just attaching that beautilful Kannan on BanyanLeaf.
    Thanks. This is a peculiar south indian art.

    [/quote]

  2. #22
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Dear Krshna Das,

    I just stated the fact and definitely i am very much ignorant to accept a praise as being humble.

    Secondly, i want to throw one advice before i proceed elaborating my speculations further. As an initiated devotee, it is not good idea to seek too much outside your Guru's world as it always confuse you. So, i recommend sincerely with a caring heart that, pls refrain from researching in to other vaishnava tattvas. If you are not initiated, the doors are open to swim all across and even its ok to get lost.

    I think i will answer for only one of your confusion which is not really a confusion. BS narrates manifestation of three Sambu and the last one who gets manifested at the juncture of eye brows is still not the Rudra we are talking about. That Sambu is like a prototype as how Brahma is still a protype at that stage of creation until He actually gets the real birth on the navel of Shri Vishnu. If you are allowed to read Srila Prabupada's translation, i think it will be all clear with out doubts.

    Hare Krishna!

  3. #23
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Dear Krshna Das,

    I just stated the fact and definitely i am very much ignorant to accept a praise as being humble.

    Secondly, i want to throw one advice before i proceed elaborating my speculations further. As an initiated devotee, it is not good idea to seek too much outside your Guru's world as it always confuse you. So, i recommend sincerely with a caring heart that, pls refrain from researching in to other vaishnava tattvas. If you are not initiated, the doors are open to swim all across and even its ok to get lost.
    Yes that is correct; and it's not only that I should not seek too much outside, it's also that I do not feel and urge to do that. So that's why I asked if this is sidhhanta from Sri Sampradaya. I just want to discuss the GV sidhhanta with you, especially those tattvas which are centered around Brahma Samhita.

    I think i will answer for only one of your confusion which is not really a confusion. BS narrates manifestation of three Sambu and the last one who gets manifested at the juncture of eye brows is still not the Rudra we are talking about. That Sambu is like a prototype as how Brahma is still a protype at that stage of creation until He actually gets the real birth on the navel of Shri Vishnu. If you are allowed to read Srila Prabupada's translation, i think it will be all clear with out doubts.
    I am all the more confused. Sorry about this. I thought there are just two manifestations of Siva - Sada Siva and Rudra. I am pretty much confused between these two already , and who is this third one now?

    My Guru Maharaj always encourages his disciples to read Srila PrabhupAda's books.

    I know I am asking for too much from you, but if you can just point me to the Brahma Samhita web links or simply the verse numbers, I will study these three Siva's and if there are questions, we can discuss further.

    ----

    One more thing, you said that the abode of sada-siva is also not eternal since it dissolves at the time of maha-pralaya. Is there any refernce from Brahma Samhita or Bhagwatam regarding this? If the references exist in other schools I am not very interested but if it is in Bhagwatam / BS etc then pls do let me know the verses. Thanks again.

    Hare Krishna !

  4. #24
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective (DISCUSSION)

    Dear Krshna Das,

    I am glad and happy that you have taken my advice positively. I believe, pride out of humility is too dangerous. We all know the story of Narada Muni.

    Since its only you who is engaged in this thread, i will also limit my sources of information to only GV school.

    I guess this picture gives over all idea of Lord's expansions






    For BS translations, use this link and read from verse 8.

    http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/r...f%20brahma.htm

    Let us discuss after you finish reading them. ( They are not three Shiva literally though)

    Hare Krshna!

  5. #25
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Jai Radhe !

    This is all becoming very interesting. Let me tell you why -

    Last year, I was reading a book called Sri BhAgwat-amrita-kana which is composed by Srila Vishvantha Chakravarty, who is the Guru of Sri Baladeva VidhyabhUsana. The purports on this book are given by my Guru Maharaj. In this book, the avtAr-tattva is described, and while I was reading this book, I thought it is better to draw a chart in order to understand it fully, since this avtar-tattva is all very confusing.

    And the chart which you have provided to me (thanks for this) comes out to be exactly similar to the one I had drawn last year, except some differences:

    1. The chart which you have provided mentions that tad-ekatma rupa emanates from vaibhav-prakash rupa, but does not differentiate b/w the two. The chart which I had drawn says that vaibhav-prakas rupa are direct manifestations of swayam rupa sri krsna but with different moods and akara like balaram, chaturbhuja devaki nandan, and two armed Krsna (vasudev krsna). And the tadekatma rupa are again the direct manifestations of swayam rupakrsna, divided into two, on the basis whether these manifestations exhibit sakti-prakash (exhibition of power) to what degree. This is the difference b/w tadekatma and vaibhav-prakash rupa. But yes a similarity b/w tad-ekatma and vaibhav-prakash is that they always exhibit different moods.

    2. There is third arm emanting from swayam rupa krsna (in my chart) which says Avesha-rupa which is further divided into two - Bhagwad-Avesha Rupa and Bhagwad-Saktyavesa Rupa. Bhagwad avesha Rupa manifest themselves to be Supreme Preson where as Bhgawad-Sakyta vesa Rupa think themselves to be the servant of Supreme. these Bhagwad Saktya vesa rupas are then manifested as swansa -expansions -> Saktya-vesa avtar -> Avtar and Vibhuti.

    3. The chart does not mention the further expansions of vaibhava-vilasa rupas emanaiting from each murti of quadrupal expansion. Also, all the Lila-avtaras and manvantaravtaras are not mentioned.

    4. I was wondering where should we place Channa-avtaras (Incarnation in disguise) That is also not mentioned in the book I was reading, nor teh chart you have provided.

    5. I am unable to place Rudra Siva anywhere in this chart, for which we are doing our discussion here.

    BUT anyways, for now, I think let us keep all these point 1-4 which I have mentioned above as - ON HOLD. We will discuss these when i create a seperate thread for AvtAr-tattva.

    For now let us just concentrate on understanding Siva-Tattva. The link which you have provided is PrabhupAdas. I will come back to you when I read all the verses related to Siva tattva completely (though I had read it long time bAck and it is better to brush up myself before we discuss anything).

    Looking forward to learn a lot from you.

    Jai Radhe...

  6. #26
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Radhe !
    My comments on the BS verses. I have used the link http://vedabase.net/bs/5/en since the one you mentioned was not accessible from my
    office.
    =====
    7:
    Lord does not comes "directly" in contact with maya-sakti and at the same time is also not entirely cut off from her. He just places a
    divine glance (Ikshana in sanskrit) on maya sakti.
    8:
    Causes of creation is described: Purusha's desire for procreation, Efficient principle (Maya Sakti) and Material principle (Sambhu).
    Now Sambhu here, is described as dim halo of reflected affulgance of Virta-Purusha and is considred as an emblem of masculine mundane
    creation.
    Also, if you see the purport, it is mentioned that the seed of desire in mundane world is just a perverted reflection of the seed of
    amorous desires found in divine abode, but is very far from it, and so it is just called it's "prototype".
    ====> So my understanding is that this "prototype" refers to "seed of desire in mundane world" and not the material principle (Shambu),
    which just acts as the masculine emblem of virat purusa engaged by Supreme during creation of cosmos. You agree on this?
    Also this Sambhu is not Sada-siva for sure, but he is Rudra-Siva or not, I am not sure until and unless I read purport for verse 10.
    Also, The first phase of the appearance of the mundane desire is the mental principle ripe for procreative activity. What is the second
    phase ? - It is illusory reflection of the original transcendental desire-seed -> FYI.
    10:
    ====>If you read the purport, my understanding is that Rudra is simply a manifestation of Sambhu, in the form of effulgant masculine
    symbol of procreation -
    "Thereupon Śambhu, lord of pradhāna embodying the substantive principle of all material entities, who is the same as Rudra, the dim
    reflection of the Supreme Lord's own divine glance, consummates his intercourse with Māyā, the efficient mundane causal principle."
    45:
    Sambhu or Rudra is described. Also Lord himself turns into Sambhu by accepting the adulterating principle -
    "Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration.
    This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality
    of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of
    the plenary spiritual potency.
    BUT THIS LINE IS VERY CONFUSING:
    This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadāśiva, in the form of the
    effulgent masculine-symbol-god Śambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested.
    ====> Now this says that this this adulterated subjective portion of virat purusha is Sada-Siva????? The above line "...Godhead becomes a
    subservient when He Himself attains ..." this ctually means that Godhead himself becomes Sadasiva by accepting the adulterating principle?
    What do you think, actually this logic does not hold true because of two reasons , which I will tell you later. For now can you pls
    provide your understanding on this topic.
    You can reply specifically to the places marked "====>"

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Grames...Radhe Radhe !

    So you did not post any comments to the above post. Are you very busy now a days?

  8. #28
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear Krshna Das,

    I read this post just now after long break and i am so sorry for not been able to respond to this earlier.

    Shambu is very generic name and it can also refer Lord Krshna or Lord Vishnu based on the context. Also, its not always referent of a personality either. As you read BS verses, you realize that personification happens at later stages and the name appears much before the personification manifests. As i said earlier, Shambu can mean the primordial masculine principle, the seed of creation, all forms of Shiva and also Lord Krshna or Vishnu.

    The confusion in 5.45 happens if you tend to think that, Lord Sada-Shiva is different from Lord Krshna though it is not the case. But, it will confuse you more if you want to understand the relationship between Lord Sada-Shiva and Lord Krshna by means of "Advaitic" oneness. Lord Sada-Shiva is a reflection of Lord Krshna but symbolize the mix of three of Lord Krshna's energies will be my simplest understanding.

    I also want to remind one more thing here is that, i am not really very advanced in this topic and sharing only what i understood by reading SP's BS and also Srila Jiva Goswami's Sad Sandarpa. I would recommend you to read all the Sandarpa of Jiva Goswami if it is allowed by your Guru.

    Can you also help me to read this Sri BhAgwat-amrita-kana? I am not sure where to get this knowledge and if it is in book format or e-book format, can you please share it with me.

    Hare Krshna!

  9. #29
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Jai Radhe...

    Thanks for your answers and I will be contemplating on these for the timebeing, before I ask more.

    You can download the books from here:

    Shiva-Tattva: (really a very good book on gaudiya vaishnava philosophy on Siva Tattva)
    http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/....html?start=15

    Sri BhAgwatamrita-kaNa: (a very good book on avtar tattva)
    http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/.../54-hindi.html

    Sad Sandarbhas...Yes I know these are considered to be a very high class books on Gaudiya philosophy, and for now I am just reading some small books of my Guru maharaja. (Remember I have been initiated last year only and before that I was associated with ISKCON for 8 years and during these 8 years I really didn't read or discuss elevated topics, probably I was not ready for these at that time)

    Will speak again later.

    Hari.

  10. #30
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Lord Sada-Shiva is a reflection of Lord Krshna but symbolize the mix of three of Lord Krshna's energies will be my simplest understanding.



    OK Prabhu,

    For now, let us just concentrate our discussion on sada siva. (let us forget shambhu and rudra for now).

    So you are trying to say that sada siva is same as krsna, just that lord accepts the adulterating principle consisting of three energies and manifests into sada-siva?

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