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Thread: Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

  1. #31
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    This is where the trick is at least to my ignorance.

    Lord Sada-Siva is not Lord Krshna but Lord Krshna is not different from Lord Sada-Siva. This is the complexity of Shiva-Tattva and i am sure it is explained by your Guru Maharaj in his Shiva Tattva.

    So, it is not possible to point out to a personality and name that personality as "Shambu" but it is like energy expansions of our beloved Lord Krshna where Lord Sada-Siva becomes complex combination of all three of His energy and yet different from Lord Krshna but simultaneously not different from Vishnu-Tattva. There was a very long chain of messages on GV discussion forum and it is not easy to isolate Vishnu-Tattva from Shiva-Tattva and that thread is still available. ( http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/topic_755.html)


    So, if you are expecting a crystal clear picture of the "differences" between these Tattvas, no you are not going to find one from me for sure. .

    Only one clue i have where the RasaVada list out all the qualities that are "exhibited" by Lord Krshna and also what is exhibited by His expansions who fall in to various categories. ( Such differences are not to negate the possible presence of the essence but only mean to denote what they 'choose' to exhibit)

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    Post Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    This is where the trick is at least to my ignorance.

    Lord Sada-Siva is not Lord Krshna but Lord Krshna is not different from Lord Sada-Siva. This is the complexity of Shiva-Tattva and i am sure it is explained by your Guru Maharaj in his Shiva Tattva.

    So, it is not possible to point out to a personality and name that personality as "Shambu" but it is like energy expansions of our beloved Lord Krshna where Lord Sada-Siva becomes complex combination of all three of His energy and yet different from Lord Krshna but simultaneously not different from Vishnu-Tattva. There was a very long chain of messages on GV discussion forum and it is not easy to isolate Vishnu-Tattva from Shiva-Tattva and that thread is still available. ( http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/topic_755.html)


    So, if you are expecting a crystal clear picture of the "differences" between these Tattvas, no you are not going to find one from me for sure. .

    Only one clue i have where the RasaVada list out all the qualities that are "exhibited" by Lord Krshna and also what is exhibited by His expansions who fall in to various categories. ( Such differences are not to negate the possible presence of the essence but only mean to denote what they 'choose' to exhibit)
    In one translation it (brhg bhagvamitra) said after holding the position of Shiva for a thousand births, one becomes a vaisnava- engages in bhakti and attains Visnu-loka, if so, it just shows the standard required to reach pure spiritual world, if even Lord Shiva himself can't get there easily (despite being the highest vaishnava and urdhavereta yogi)

  3. #33

    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    I understand that when a form of God is considered the Supreme manifestation, in a group's scriptures, that it is to instill devotion to their ishta devata, not a literal "my God is bigger than your God" type of thing.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear Stephen,

    Learning things that we do not know yet is a very challenging process and keeping our ignorance aside and then allowing the truth to descend to our "self" is not so easy process. With our "ego" contamination, we want to visualize everything with the filters of limited knowledge and the developed faith we have acquired and accepted but with such defects, it is impossible to know and get even the glimpse of what the ultimate Truth is.

    What is "Ista"?? Whose Ista? Are we going to believe that it is our "Ista" and to please our Ista God takes forms? If it is so, then our spiritual seeking will be purely based on our ISTA which is already the root cause of all the troubles we face in this material existence. Such ISTA cannot be the mean to perceive the ultimate Person or Ultimate Truth and it is practical and wise that with no ISTA or ICCHA only you can get the eligibility to pursue any sort of spiritual growth. In fact, it is even more subtle to say, ICCHA is still required but the ISTA has to develope with the right GNANA and a person with right GNANA cannot be having any ISTA as the outcome of his ego or 'I' ness. So, the true knowledge can only be obtained from scriptures and if you attempt to manufacture God with your ego based knowledge synthesis, you might derive a pleasing ISTA devata of your own but we are not talking about such ISTA devata but the Supreme Bagawan who exist regardless of your ICCHA or ISTA.

    So, for Vaishnavas with the authority of the scriptures, Lord Vishnu is the Ultimate Bagawan and Lord Krishna is original Supreme Personality. This faith is not manufactured by some great Acharya's ISTA but by the rigorous study and understanding of the scriptures and the Truth revealed by such scriptures. There is no question of some individual's ISTA here.

    For fun, if He is God, He is always bigger than everything else and everyone else. The problem comes only if you claim someone else as God.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I understand that when a form of God is considered the Supreme manifestation, in a group's scriptures, that it is to instill devotion to their ishta devata, not a literal "my God is bigger than your God" type of thing.

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    HARI BOL !!

    I like this discussion...some of the things just go over my head...but i like the respect and honesty shown here...


    "For fun, if He is God, He is always bigger than everything else and everyone else. The problem comes only if you claim someone else as God." ...

    this is very very true !!

    yours
    jaydev

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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Hare Krsna....Dandavats grames prabhu...

    So here are all the questions that I have asked from my Siksa-guru and the answers are also here.

    The references from sastra is not mentioned here, because I accept the authority of my Guru and accept it as it is, especially because I have not seen any "contradicting" startement" in sastra till now, for the information provided.

    This is FYI.

    Q: Is Sada Siva non different and simultaneously different from Visnu -tattva?
    A: Sada-Siva is Visnu-Tattva and not different from him.

    Q: Why does Lord Visnu manifest as Sada-Siva?
    A: To propagate the glories of Naam-prabhu and Visnu-Bhakti through Hari-Katha mentioned in various scriptures like Ramayana and Puranas etc. Devi partvati questions Lord Sada-Siva and he answers, through which the propagation of Sanatana Dharma takes place.

    Q: Where is Lord Sada-Siva's abode?
    A: It is above the tatastha-region (marginal region) within the adhyatmika-akasa but below the vaikuntha lokas. It is non destructable.

    Q: Who attains his abode?
    A: The bhaktas who develop strong faith in Siva after hearing the pasttimes of Hari from him attain this abode. They constantly hear Hari-Katha and also serve Lord Visnu (in form of sada-Siva) there.

    Q: Who is Rudra-Siva then?
    A: He is Visnu-Tattva, but with an adulterating principle (mAyik-vikAr) of three potencies - tamo-guNa of mAya-Sakti, swalpata-guNa of tatastha- Sakti, Cit+Samvit guNa of Cit-Sakti. So he is not pure visnu-tattva. His position is described as that of different as well as similar to Visnu-tattva, but he also not "pure-jiva-tattva" but also not "swamsa-tattva" because he accepts the swalpata-guNa of tatastha-Sakti. He is like a Lord who is in ddirect contact with mAya, though mAya cannot touch the Lord. In this way, the position of Rudra-Siva is unthinkable (avicintya).

    Q: Where is the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Within the material sky, and his abode is temporary.

    Q: Who goes to the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Those who worship Siva with faith as an independent form of God may go there, and attain the sanga of highest-vaisnava and then understand sidhhanta clearly. They are then either elevated to higher planates, or come back to this planet where they carry on their bhajana.

    Q: Who propagates the cheating and Asurik philosophies like mAyAvAd?
    A: Lord Rudra-Siva appears in the form of Sankracarya in Kali-Yuga to propagate this philosophy to athiests and Asuras in the form of Brahmins (Kalim Ashritya jayante rAkshasAh brahma yonisu - padma purana - Rakshsas are born as human beings and brahmins in kali yuga)

    Q: Why does Lord accepts the position of Rudra-Siva?
    A: For the cause of pralaya (annihilating the universe) and preaching false-philosophies to RakshasAs. He is adhiSthAtri-deva of tamo-guNa.

    Q: Who is Sambhu?
    A: Sambhu is not really a personal form of God. He is just a principle or a prototype that is menifested during the beginning of creation as "Sambhu-Linga" (the male masculine emblem of virAt-puruSa) - though not literally in that sense. It is just the "means" by which the Supreme Lord - Pratham puruSa accepts the indirect contact with mAya-sakti).

    Q: "Vaisvana-nam yatha Sambhu" referes to whome?
    A: Rudra-Siva because Sada-Siva is non-different from Visnu-Tattva.

    Q: Is it correct that a jiva who fulfilsl ALL the duties of varnAsrama-dharma for 1000 life times, attain the position of Siva?
    A: Yes, this is the verdict of bhAgwatam and it is a principle essentially followed by Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, as it is.

    Q:How is this possible, because Sada Siva is Visnu tattva and Rudra Siva is adlterated principle of Vinsu-Tattva?
    A: Such Jiwas attain the position of one of the ekadash-rudraa, whoch are the empowered incarnations of the Lord. Their position is again temporary, and their abodes are in material world only.

    FYI, my face book account is this - http://www.facebook.com/sunilkumar.krsnadas

    All glories to Lord Siva !
    Last edited by Krsna Das; 01 June 2010 at 03:21 AM.

  7. #37

    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    Hare Krsna....Dandavats grames prabhu...

    So here are all the questions that I have asked from my Siksa-guru and the answers are also here.

    The references from sastra is not mentioned here, because I accept the authority of my Guru and accept it as it is, especially because I have not seen any "contradicting" startement" in sastra till now, for the information provided.

    This is FYI.

    Q: Is Sada Siva non different and simultaneously different from Visnu -tattva?
    A: Sada-Siva is Visnu-Tattva and not different from him.

    Q: Why does Lord Visnu manifest as Sada-Siva?
    A: To propagate the glories of Naam-prabhu and Visnu-Bhakti through Hari-Katha mentioned in various scriptures like Ramayana and Puranas etc. Devi partvati questions Lord Sada-Siva and he answers, through which the propagation of Sanatana Dharma takes place.

    Q: Where is Lord Sada-Siva's abode?
    A: It is above the tatastha-region (marginal region) within the adhyatmika-akasa but below the vaikuntha lokas. It is non destructable.

    Q: Who attains his abode?
    A: The bhaktas who develop strong faith in Siva after hearing the pasttimes of Hari from him attain this abode. They constantly hear Hari-Katha and also serve Lord Visnu (in form of sada-Siva) there.

    Q: Who is Rudra-Siva then?
    A: He is Visnu-Tattva, but with an adulterating principle (mAyik-vikAr) of three potencies - tamo-guNa of mAya-Sakti, swalpata-guNa of tatastha- Sakti, Cit+Samvit guNa of Cit-Sakti. So he is not pure visnu-tattva. His position is described as that of different as well as similar to Visnu-tattva, but he also not "pure-jiva-tattva" but also not "swamsa-tattva" because he accepts the swalpata-guNa of tatastha-Sakti. He is like a Lord who is in ddirect contact with mAya, though mAya cannot touch the Lord. In this way, the position of Rudra-Siva is unthinkable (avicintya).

    Q: Where is the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Within the material sky, and his abode is temporary.

    Q: Who goes to the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Those who worship Siva with faith as an independent form of God may go there, and attain the sanga of highest-vaisnava and then understand sidhhanta clearly. They are then either elevated to higher planates, or come back to this planet where they carry on their bhajana.

    Q: Who propagates the cheating and Asurik philosophies like mAyAvAd?
    A: Lord Rudra-Siva appears in the form of Sankracarya in Kali-Yuga to propagate this philosophy to athiests and Asuras in the form of Brahmins (Kalim Ashritya jayante rAkshasAh brahma yonisu - padma purana - Rakshsas are born as human beings and brahmins in kali yuga)

    Q: Why does Lord accepts the position of Rudra-Siva?
    A: For the cause of pralaya (annihilating the universe) and preaching false-philosophies to RakshasAs. He is adhiSthAtri-deva of tamo-guNa.

    Q: Who is Sambhu?
    A: Sambhu is not really a personal form of God. He is just a principle or a prototype that is menifested during the beginning of creation as "Sambhu-Linga" (the male masculine emblem of virAt-puruSa) - though not literally in that sense. It is just the "means" by which the Supreme Lord - Pratham puruSa accepts the indirect contact with mAya-sakti).

    Q: "Vaisvana-nam yatha Sambhu" referes to whome?
    A: Rudra-Siva because Sada-Siva is non-different from Visnu-Tattva.

    Q: Is it correct that a jiva who fulfilsl ALL the duties of varnAsrama-dharma for 1000 life times, attain the position of Siva?
    A: Yes, this is the verdict of bhAgwatam and it is a principle essentially followed by Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, as it is.

    Q:How is this possible, because Sada Siva is Visnu tattva and Rudra Siva is adlterated principle of Vinsu-Tattva?
    A: Such Jiwas attain the position of one of the ekadash-rudraa, whoch are the empowered incarnations of the Lord. Their position is again temporary, and their abodes are in material world only.

    FYI, my face book account is this - http://www.facebook.com/sunilkumar.krsnadas

    All glories to Lord Siva !
    Dear Krsna Das,

    Hare Krsna! Namah Shivaya!

    I mean no disrespect, but some of the answers are simply laughable!!
    A lot of the answers are a result of Sampradayik political philosophy that does not support authentic Vedic thought.
    Like Lord Shiva spreading nonsense and so called mayawad coming as Shankaracharya. This is the result of a mistranslated 16th century non-Vedic scripture called Brahm Samhita by some Krsna devotee to glorify Krsna and put down the Shaivs. Even in that Shankaracharya is not clearly mentioned.

    Other silly things like devotees of Shiva go to his abode or other higher planets and then have to come back and continue their "bhajan".
    Also that devotees of Shiva hear "hari-katha" from Shiva and go to his abode to do more hari katha and worship Vishnu as Shiva in Shiva's abode.

    lol!!! What a bunch of silly stories. All these so many different demarkations are confusing and made up by most Gaudiyas who show a clear deviation from pure bhakti. Why? Because Bhakti is not about this argument and demarkations. Its not about intellectual reasoning and politics of who is above whom.

    The gopis were not intellectual. They were simple hearted loving devotees.
    Not shastra flaunting pundits.
    Bhakti can be learnt from Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. After him tons of literature, ow interpretations and newer scriptures were churned out.
    What did Chaitanya write? That is important.

    Why don't you ask this Shiksha Guru - Why did Krishna worship Lord Shiva standing on one leg for months together without food or water? What all boons was he granted by Lord Shiva and Goddess Parvati?

    There are many falcies in the way of Gaudiya perspective and positioning of Lord Shiva. BUT there is a big difference of how Lord Krishna himself positions lord Shiva. So we see the sampradaya politics says one thing that does not agree with Lord Krishna. Needless to say that the 400 years old Gaudiya Sampradaya accepts even Krishna in parts and not wholly.
    Things that Krishna says and are in line with Gaudiya philosophy are accepted. The one that he says differs from Gaudiya belief policies are not accepted and side tracked with some silly reason as not authentic etc.

    The Gaudiyas ahve double standards on every step.
    When Lord Krsna in Bhagvad Gita says people of "lower intelligence" worship demi-Gods, they immediately apply this to Lord Shiva to preach that Shiva is a demi-God. When Lord Krsna himself worships Shiva - doesn't that make him as of lower intelligence IF Shiva was indeed a demi-God??? This proves that Shiva is NOT a "demi-" God. To which this different aspects of Shiva in a complicated cunning way has been presented by Gaudiyas that was explained by the Siksha Guru.
    Another double standard - Gaudiyas worship top vaishnavas. Chaitanya said to be the servant of the servant of the servant. Now if you consider Lord Shiva as topmost Vaishnava, why don't you worship him??
    Infact Vishnu (Krsna, Rama) worshipped Lord Shiva in every incarnation.
    Lord Ramachandra worshipped Lord Shiva very systematically taking proper initiation from sage Agastya, sages Vashishtha and Vishvamitra. The Gurus of Lord Rama and their teachings have no place in Gaudiya literature.
    Lord Rama gives darshan to Goswami Tulasidas and Gaudiyas labeled his preachings as "Mayawad" and do not touch it.
    Lord Krishna ardently sought the Pashupat initiation into Pashupaat Shiva Yog from great devotee of Lord Shiva and sage Upamanyu. Someone who is initiated into Pashupat Yog and practices becomes a staunch Shaiva.
    So we see the virtues and deeds of Lord Krishna and see the great difference of the practices and philosophies of the Gaudiyas that don't have much in common.
    Please accept the whole Vedic traditions.
    The Vedas are not about Gaudiyas. Thanks.
    Regards,
    Hari boL!
    YogKriya

  8. #38
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear Krsna Das,

    I am delighted to read this information from you and all the responses you have given increased my understanding and this is great help.

    Even in these answers, there are lot of subtle points and it is not easy for an "ordinary" person to understand them.

    Thanks for your time.
    Hare Krshna!

    Quote Originally Posted by Krsna Das View Post
    Hare Krsna....Dandavats grames prabhu...

    So here are all the questions that I have asked from my Siksa-guru and the answers are also here.

    The references from sastra is not mentioned here, because I accept the authority of my Guru and accept it as it is, especially because I have not seen any "contradicting" startement" in sastra till now, for the information provided.

    This is FYI.

    Q: Is Sada Siva non different and simultaneously different from Visnu -tattva?
    A: Sada-Siva is Visnu-Tattva and not different from him.

    Q: Why does Lord Visnu manifest as Sada-Siva?
    A: To propagate the glories of Naam-prabhu and Visnu-Bhakti through Hari-Katha mentioned in various scriptures like Ramayana and Puranas etc. Devi partvati questions Lord Sada-Siva and he answers, through which the propagation of Sanatana Dharma takes place.

    Q: Where is Lord Sada-Siva's abode?
    A: It is above the tatastha-region (marginal region) within the adhyatmika-akasa but below the vaikuntha lokas. It is non destructable.

    Q: Who attains his abode?
    A: The bhaktas who develop strong faith in Siva after hearing the pasttimes of Hari from him attain this abode. They constantly hear Hari-Katha and also serve Lord Visnu (in form of sada-Siva) there.

    Q: Who is Rudra-Siva then?
    A: He is Visnu-Tattva, but with an adulterating principle (mAyik-vikAr) of three potencies - tamo-guNa of mAya-Sakti, swalpata-guNa of tatastha- Sakti, Cit+Samvit guNa of Cit-Sakti. So he is not pure visnu-tattva. His position is described as that of different as well as similar to Visnu-tattva, but he also not "pure-jiva-tattva" but also not "swamsa-tattva" because he accepts the swalpata-guNa of tatastha-Sakti. He is like a Lord who is in ddirect contact with mAya, though mAya cannot touch the Lord. In this way, the position of Rudra-Siva is unthinkable (avicintya).

    Q: Where is the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Within the material sky, and his abode is temporary.

    Q: Who goes to the abode of Rudra-Siva?
    A: Those who worship Siva with faith as an independent form of God may go there, and attain the sanga of highest-vaisnava and then understand sidhhanta clearly. They are then either elevated to higher planates, or come back to this planet where they carry on their bhajana.

    Q: Who propagates the cheating and Asurik philosophies like mAyAvAd?
    A: Lord Rudra-Siva appears in the form of Sankracarya in Kali-Yuga to propagate this philosophy to athiests and Asuras in the form of Brahmins (Kalim Ashritya jayante rAkshasAh brahma yonisu - padma purana - Rakshsas are born as human beings and brahmins in kali yuga)

    Q: Why does Lord accepts the position of Rudra-Siva?
    A: For the cause of pralaya (annihilating the universe) and preaching false-philosophies to RakshasAs. He is adhiSthAtri-deva of tamo-guNa.

    Q: Who is Sambhu?
    A: Sambhu is not really a personal form of God. He is just a principle or a prototype that is menifested during the beginning of creation as "Sambhu-Linga" (the male masculine emblem of virAt-puruSa) - though not literally in that sense. It is just the "means" by which the Supreme Lord - Pratham puruSa accepts the indirect contact with mAya-sakti).

    Q: "Vaisvana-nam yatha Sambhu" referes to whome?
    A: Rudra-Siva because Sada-Siva is non-different from Visnu-Tattva.

    Q: Is it correct that a jiva who fulfilsl ALL the duties of varnAsrama-dharma for 1000 life times, attain the position of Siva?
    A: Yes, this is the verdict of bhAgwatam and it is a principle essentially followed by Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, as it is.

    Q:How is this possible, because Sada Siva is Visnu tattva and Rudra Siva is adlterated principle of Vinsu-Tattva?
    A: Such Jiwas attain the position of one of the ekadash-rudraa, whoch are the empowered incarnations of the Lord. Their position is again temporary, and their abodes are in material world only.

    FYI, my face book account is this - http://www.facebook.com/sunilkumar.krsnadas

    All glories to Lord Siva !

  9. #39
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    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Dear friend,

    This thread is about "Gaudiya's" perspective and doesn't require your prejudices and judgments right? Your perspective here may be right but limited to only your perspective and it has no value with respect to Gaudiyas.

    FYI, if we take arguments like you have posted here, we can go in circle and arrive at nowhere. Spiritual seeking is not to "GET LOST" at nowhere and it is not the idea of any of the Vaishnava tradition.

    Gopi's are not dumb as you think but the great Jnani's who took birth by the grace of Lord to engage with Himself in various loving moods. With out proper information, you should be in a position to "learn" rather throw judgements.

    Thanks

  10. #40

    Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear friend,

    This thread is about "Gaudiya's" perspective and doesn't require your prejudices and judgments right? Your perspective here may be right but limited to only your perspective and it has no value with respect to Gaudiyas.
    "Shiva is a demi-god"...

    You havent grasped the Bhagavad Gita at all!

    Indeed people who accord a heirarchy between the devas and claim a Godhead (a specific deva being Supreme and others emanating from Him/Her) have lost their mind!

    Shri Krishna hints Arjuna to stop worshipping Rig Vedic demi-gods(navagrahas(heavenly planets)/element(rig vedic)devas) and ancestor worship.

    You arent "monotheists" at all...

    Hinduism is all about debate. Thats how different sampradayas come about.

    Nowadays there are gurus who tell their shishyas rumours about other sampradayas and ask them to plug their ears and ignore. - tsk! tsk! not at all like the olden days where everything was based upon arguementation leading to refutation or clarification. Whereby Brahmanas would travel to temples in every corner of India.

    Sometimes it can get quite nasty even. Madhvacharya used to tease Advaitins crudely.

    FYI, if we take arguments like you have posted here, we can go in circle and arrive at nowhere. Spiritual seeking is not to "GET LOST" at nowhere and it is not the idea of any of the Vaishnava tradition.
    Who says will arrive at no where? You are under the assumption that your sampradaya is the most logical hence any arguements against it is futile.

    Gopi's are not dumb as you think but the great Jnani's who took birth by the grace of Lord to engage with Himself in various loving moods. With out proper information, you should be in a position to "learn" rather throw judgements.

    Thanks
    Again it is you who is assuming that I dont have proper information.

    Anyways, I'm done though.

    If minding one's own business and not conversing about the Truth - then thats when there is no learning.

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