Counting the Enlightened

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Over the past ~4 years on HDF I have viewed only 2 instances where the claim from an HDF member was one of 'enlightenment'. In both cases I have seen the conversations turn sour or a bit caustic over time . I thought about this, and offer the reader the following POV.

Is there an issue with proclaiming one's unfoldment?
I look to the śvetāśvatara¹ upaniṣad ( by the ṛṣi of the same name, śvetāśvatara) . In the 3rd chapter (adhyāya), 8th śloka, he says the following:

I know this mighty Being (puruṣa), who shines effulgent like the sun beyond darkness.
One passes beyond death only by knowing him, there is no other road (for obtaining liberation).

He continues in the 21st śloka, I know this undecaying, ancient Soul of all ...

In the 14th śloka ṛṣi śvetāśvatara defines this Being,

This puruṣa has 1,000 heads, a 1,000 eyes ( i.e. this Being is everywhere) and 1,000 feet. He extends beyond 10 fingers or dasa-aṅgula.
This beyond dasa-aṅga ( or dasa-aṅgula) is another way of saying endless , ananta - boundless, infinite, without end.

My point is , this realized being has the direct personal experience of brahman, Being. He is able to articulate this experience as personal, real and beyond doubt. It is my assessment that any question on this experience of brahman he could answer from personal, direct knowledge in a way that is meaningful and uplifting to the listener. Yet we never get to this stage here on HDF.

It has been my experience on HDF this ability to offer a meaningful conversation from those few who say they have or are now in the realm of mokṣa have been less then rewarding. I have engaged these members the best I can, in a positive approach in hopes they would bring this light to HDF.

It also tells me...
It also tells me ( as I have been taught) there are different levels of realization. There is realization of the SELF, of that silence within, then there is the fully , complete (samāpti) realization that takes one to see and experience the total collective (samaṣṭi) universe as one's Self, with no differences, no duality. One is predicated on the other.

Enlightenment is the establishment of the silence within, the experience of Being, of Self. For this person there is no return say the wise; yet too, this SELF experienced within can also be experienced without. This is the fullness (bhūman) of the ṛṣi's of the ved and upaniṣad-s.

I have found...
On HDF we have little patience for proclamations with out substantiation; we have little patience with bragging, boasting or the inflation of ego when it comes to this matter. I can see why.
Yet I also think we as a group may wish to add a few ounces of patience to our kettle before we discount someone for not being established in the Self. I think we can do this just by being curious and asking questions.
The upaniṣad's can be our guide as they articulate the experiences one has. I also have been taught this experience is natural, it is not so exclusive that one cannot not have this experience , albeit fleeting ( not firmly established day-in-and-day out) - this too suggests our patience with the person of this proclamation.

Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad gītā that these souls are rare indeed that become total Realized Beings. From a numbers POV it seems likely they are walking this planet. If we just consider the numbers:

• 1% of the total population = 60 million realized beings; seems too high, don't you think?
• 0.03 % of the total population = 1.87 million realized beings; too high?
• 0.008% of the total population =469 thousand realized beings; about right?
• Even with the smallest of numbers (0.004%) equals 39 enlightened per million people.
• Maybe 1 in a million is the right number or 0.0001% ; this gives the planet 6,000 enlightened souls walking amongst us. And why could not a few turn-up on HDF? I do not know why not.

One could say, why should there be any realized souls on this good earth? To that I say I see too many people pursuing this level of Being . I see the natural instincts of many to choose this path. It is my humble opinion we here on HDF should nourish and support this natural instinct - this is dharma.

I am not sure of others' view on this matter, but am open to your views and ideas.

praṇām

words

• śvetāśvatara - a very interesting word.
  • śveta - is white, dressed in white, brilliant - hence pure.
  • āśva - being drawn by horses and is a symbol for the senses
  • tara carrying across or beyond ; conquering
  • Hence the one with pure senses, that carries others across or beyond ( ignorance is implied); or the one of pure senses that resides beyond i.e. established in brahman
• śvetāsvatara
  
  
  • śveta - is white, dressed in white, brilliant - hence pure.
  • asva - having no property i.e. the indication of the saṁyāsin ( some write sannyāsin)
  • tara carrying across or beyond ; conquering
  • Hence the pure one, with no attachments, that resides beyond i.e. established in brahman
• śvetāsvatara
  
  • śveta - is white, dressed in white, brilliant - hence pure.
  • aśva - a horse, stallian (powerful) ; also means a teacher
  • tara carrying across or beyond ; conquering
  • Hence, the pure and powerful one; the teacher established in brahman
• śvetāsvatara
  
  • śveta - is white, dressed in white, brilliant - hence pure.
  • aśvatara - mule, better horse, also one of the chiefs of the nāga-s
  • The pure one, chief of the nāga-s; 'nāga' infers ( IMHO) the the best or most excellent of any kindi.e. the purest teacher or purest teaching.
• dasa-aṅgula
  dasa = 10; aṅgula = aṅga which is limb, member ( from 'am' , a limb of the body) ; + āla - not little or insignificant , excellent

[Znanna]

Pranams,

We are all enlightened, if we would but pause to remember that~

Peace to all my brothers and sisters here...

ZN

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast� Z,

Pranams,

We are all enlightened, if we would but pause to remember that~
Peace to all my brothers and sisters here...
ZN

Nice you see you posting again!

praṇām

[Znanna]

Thanks, I've missed y'all.

I'm a stockbroker by trade, and I've spent a goodly amount of time past couple years trying to align my clients' reality with what I see "out there."

The time for reacting, for me, however is for now, in the past. The time for seeing the path forward is now. To tread evenly, I am again seeking the balance of ... just sitting


Namaste,
ZN

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvanji: Even though I am sometimes guilty of 'attacking' these souls, I do it mostly to try to clarify words, such as enlightenment. I think some of our Hindu words are bantered about in an almost trivial sense sometimes. I am trying to stand up and be counted as a Hindu. We do have a tradition.

At the same time, in all 3 cases, I have given them at least some benefit of the doubt. As you well know, (perhaps not) my own guru was a westerner who realised the Self at an early age. Yet for 7 years he waited around, not knowing what to do. Only when students appeared and basically begged him, did he reluctantly take up the task. Then it grew from there. So it is possible. I try to be gentle as well, and ask questions, so I think in general I am with you. In fact, I think I have witnessed a change in tone on the new one, so that is a good sign, that he read some of your comments especially. You are a kind and patient man, my friend.

AC: I am sorry if I have offended you. That has never been the intention, although it may have come across that way. I take my Hinduness seriously, and lean towards a very traditional path.

Aum Namasivaya

[Onkara]

Pranams,

We are all enlightened, if we would but pause to remember that~

Peace to all my brothers and sisters here...

ZN

Namaste Yajvan, Znanna and Eastern Mind.

I quite agree with the above, this forum and the people who enjoy HDF are not outside of Brahman. At the ultimate perspective there is no-one to become realised as to believe that would necessarily require a dualistic world of objects which have the ability to exist separately to Brahman. Death and birth are also phenomena occurring in Brahman. My death will not be separate from Him. The body will return to the elements, who I take myself to be is no less than That Brahman. Why? Because all that I am is a part of That, it will not leave the universal Brahman. All that I take myself to be is connected and inseparable, be it the changing body, my personality or my sense of �I�. All of these have been questioned and the conclusion is drawn that they cannot exist separately from one another, except academically or in a manner of observation and speech; both of which still require the non-dual Brahman in order for that speech to be possible.

To divide the population into realised and non-realised is to assume that they some how exist separately to Brahman, as if Brahman was a bath tub in which the Self-realised bathe and those who are not are sustained separately to Brahman. Logically how can any of us leave and exist outside of this universal Self? In Advaita we are all realised and non-dual, there is not a second (Advaita). That knowing alone is realisation according to Advaita. That which conceals this knowledge is Avidya (lack of knowing). That which �tricks me into being a me� is prakriti, as my senses confirm that there are objects separate to my phyical "me" and so I believe my senses confirm the boundary of me. Question it! cry the Gurus.

There is no other person to save, hence the reason that the guru of Eastern Mind Ji reported not knowing what to do next. Quite right! Brahman revealed Himself and at the point there was no doer, what happened after that point was just Self movement. Why run out onto the street and proclaim that anything is now different or better than "another person" or that another person depends on you for his realisation. Clearly at this point it was all seen as being perfectly Brahman and nothing but Him in every respect.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast�

Z wrote,

We are all enlightened, if we would but pause to remember that~
ZN

As I see it, it is a matter of one's point of view. Just as a whole oak tree resides in just a seed, we too are that seed. What is required is nurturing - then the tree sprout and grows into a mighty oak tree , yet we are able to see the full potential in the seed.

Z says the following - 'if we ( but) pause to remember that' - this pause as I see it is sādhana , spiritual practice. The perfect pause is the silence that is experienced.


praṇām

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

I quite agree with the above, this forum and the people who enjoy HDF are not outside of Brahman. Clearly at this point it was all seen as being perfectly Brahman and nothing but Him in every respect.

Where is the mention and the due regard for Brahmanas/Brahmins.

Where is the regard for brahminical qualification?

A brahman is properly situated in sanatana dharma simply by doing his daily job. A Brahman is one who knows Brahman.

Which comes first Brahman or the first Brahmana?

The standard of measurment is how braminical one's life is.

[Znanna]

Which comes first Brahman or the first Brahmana?

The standard of measurment is how braminical one's life is.

How do you answer that for yourself?

It doesn't make any sense, to me, please explain?

ZN

[Onkara]

Where is the regard for brahminical qualification?

It is highly regarded by the individual who has access and needs it.

Which comes first Brahman or the first Brahmana?

For the individual who sees prakriti then the Brahmana is approached first.