Faith Freedom

[sm78]

namaste singhi,
I try to make 'funny statements' now and then on HDF so that my friends over at the other site can have a discussion about them.

I try to stay away from those discussions as much as I can. Advaita, VA Dvaita are of least concern, unless we undermine the validity of any one of them.

viruddhani iva api darsanani paraspara-purakani

Darsanas, although seemingly contradictory, are com-
plementary. (PS-9)

[Skillganon]

In one of the article of Ali Sina "Defeating Islam"

He wrote "Most other religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Bahaism, etc. are mixed bags of good and bad. You can compare them to ore. There is lots of dirt but in the midst of that dirt, there are gems and precious metals."

I really don't think he is a freind of any religion.

[Sudarshan]

In one of the article of Ali Sina "Defeating Islam"

He wrote "Most other religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Bahaism, etc. are mixed bags of good and bad. You can compare them to ore. There is lots of dirt but in the midst of that dirt, there are gems and precious metals."

I really don't think he is a freind of any religion.

I dont believe everything on that site since it is definitely biased. However, it has many valid points that should be sufficient for muslims to abandon their faith and adopt Dharmic way of life.

His comments on Hinduism mean nothing to us. Unlike the quran Hinduism is amenable to change with time, and can modernize and keep pace with the world. If something appears primtive and outdated we change them, unlike the stagnant quran. Moroeover Hinduism never forces anything on people. If any tradition demands certain level of compliance you are not obliged to follow it. If somebody wants to court poverty, it is his own choice. If women want to work, it is their choice - this is not like Islam that forces everything on others. We discriminate betweem ideal and non ideal, but do not impose the ideal on everyone - that is one's own choice.

Hinduism is more about God and way of life - and has nothing to do with classifying people as disbeleiver, dhimmi or mixing state and religion, and imposing Islamic laws on others. These make Islamic a paleolithic religion, and useless for the modern world. If there were a provision for changes to be made to Quran, you could technically create a "reformed Islam" and try to live in harmony with the rest of the world. How many muslims are ready for that? Others would like to see the quran cleaned off all unholy verses - are you ready to edit it? ( It still remains a myth this way, but becomes a harmless myth and we Hindus dont have to worry)

[Skillganon]

I dont believe everything on that site since it is definitely biased. However, it has many valid points that should be sufficient for muslims to abandon their faith and adopt Dharmic way of life.

I doubt many muslim will abandon their faith. Many of this seemingly valid point has been refuted. These many points the author seems to persist on maniacly will not have an much affect on muslims that are well versed.

Although one should note muslim abandoning their "deen" does not deccessarily mean they going to embrace Dharmic way of life.

His comments on Hinduism mean nothing to us. Unlike the quran Hinduism is amenable to change with time, and can modernize and keep pace with the world.

Indeed Hinduism has changed from where it started and where it is now. I am aware that early followers of the faith are quite different than the followers now, but not my admittance but yours.

If something appears primtive and outdated we change them,

and more than that, it seems.

unlike the stagnant quran. Moroeover Hinduism never forces anything on people. If any tradition demands certain level of compliance you are not obliged to follow it.

Can you elaborate on that, and what you mean by your statement.

If somebody wants to court poverty, it is his own choice. If women want to work, it is their choice - this is not like Islam that forces everything on others.

and where did you get the idea in ones head that Women are not allowed to work?

We discriminate betweem ideal and non ideal, but do not impose the ideal on everyone - that is one's own choice.

Can you elaborate on that.

Hinduism is more about God and way of life -

Islam is about one God and a complete way of Life.

and has nothing to do with classifying people as disbeleiver,

Well if you don't believe in something one is a disbelievers.
Example, I don't believe in Hinduism. I am a disbeliever in Hinduism.

dhimmi or mixing state and religion, and imposing Islamic laws on others.

Well since one's knowledge is not upto standards, I am not in the mind to go on further with this.

These make Islamic a paleolithic religion, and useless for the modern world.

Nor have you provided any kind of evidence, other than ones "clear opinions"

If there were a provision for changes to be made to Quran, you could technically create a "reformed Islam" and try to live in harmony with the rest of the world.

Their is no need for changes to be made to Quran. Nor need for your so called reformed Islam, and I do not see any reason why people can't live in harmony with each other without ones ill concieved need for changes to anothers "Deen" (i.e. ISlam)

How many muslims are ready for that? Others would like to see the quran cleaned off all unholy verses - are you ready to edit it? ( It still remains a myth this way, but becomes a harmless myth and we Hindus dont have to worry)

Not a fat chance.

[Sudarshan]

I doubt many muslim will abandon their faith. Many of this Valid point has been propbably refuted but these many points the author seems to persist on maniacly will not have an much affect on muslims that are well versed.

Refuted by whom? Ali Sina has not been defeated till date. All objections stand. Do you even observe how foolish muslims are when debating with him?

Although one should note muslim abandoning their "deen" does not deccessarily mean they going to embrace Dharmic way of life.

Well, any other way is more Dharmic than Islam.

Indeed Hinduism has changed from where it started and where it is now. I am aware that early followers of the faith are quite different than the followers now, but not my admittance but yours.

Can you elaborate on that, and what you mean by your statement.

Yes, we have to change with times. If a religion says otherwise, it is time for a change. My tradition and varna says that I cannot possess anything and must subsist on alms and support my family. This was practicable in olden days. Not now. I am a Software Consultant and I have to bring revenue to my old parents. Modern world does not permit me to live in the way suggested by tradition.

Any religion that is opposed to change is doomed to die someday.

Can you elaborate on that.

Sanatana Dharma is not a one size fits all. Every one is not supposed to follow identical sets of rules. It is universal in character.

Islam is about one God and a complete way of Life.

Islam is also about bringing others into submission. Can you tell me a few countries where there is a 50% muslim and 50% non muslim population, and they live in peace. On the other hand I can give a ready list of countries where Islam is close to 100% or a thin minority, where they are forced down. Islam cannot coexist with other faiths.

Well if you don't believe in something one is a disbelievers.
Example, I don't believe in Hinduism. I am a disbeliever in Hinduism.

But no one calls you so....and our scripture has no messages to illtreat or kill these unbeleivers.

Well since one's knowledge is not upto standards, I am not in the mind to go on further with this.

Good escapism.

Nor have you provided any kind of evidence, other than ones "clear opinions"

Do you need any proof for a wound on the hand? It is there for all to see.....For Indians, no proof is needed, 90 million wiped out in 1000 years of Indian history.

Their is no need for changes to be made to Quran. Nor need for your so called reformed Islam, and I do not see any reason why people can't live in harmony with each other without ones ill concieved need for changes to anothers "Deen" (i.e. ISlam)

Without that Islam will disappear soon. Good Luck. Any religion that cant adapt will die and that includes Hinduism, so my statement was general. You believe in a book that claims the earth was created in six days.

Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

And this is a duplication of the biblical God's creation.

[Skillganon]

Namaste Sudashan.

Refuted by whom? Ali Sina has not been defeated till date. All objections stand. Do you even observe how foolish muslims are when debating with him?

Well assured he is. He brings no new argument outside of Orientalist. Nothing new, just the sameregurgiated fact. Although it may seem to you that he's argument is not defeated, if one does not go outside his realm and looks elsewhere.

Well, any other way is more Dharmic than Islam.

Such Idea shows how little one knows about Islam, but well expected.

Yes, we have to change with times. If a religion says otherwise, it is time for a change.

Maybe Hinduism has to change with time. Muslim mainly don't see any need for changes in Islam.

My tradition and varna says that I cannot possess anything and must subsist on alms and support my family. This was practicable in olden days. Not now. I am a Software Consultant and I have to bring revenue to my old parents. Modern world does not permit me to live in the way suggested by tradition.

Well, you brought an example from your Religion.

Any religion that is opposed to change is doomed to die someday.

ISlam will survive till the end of days.

Sanatana Dharma is not a one size fits all. Every one is not supposed to follow identical sets of rules. It is universal in character.

Does the rules offer any equality in ones to the followers?

Islam is also about bringing others into submission. Can you tell me a few countries where there is a 50% muslim and 50% non muslim population, and they live in peace.

I don'te think you can find a country that is 50% muslim and 50% non-muslim, or 50% Christian and 50% non-christian, or 50% Bhudist and 50% non-Bhudhist.
I don't follow your logic.

On the other hand I can give a ready list of countries where Islam is close to 100% or a thin minority, where they are forced down. Islam cannot coexist with other faiths.

I don't see the connection with demographic and what you are trying to conclude?
Can you be more clear.

But no one calls you so....and our scripture has no messages to illtreat or kill these unbeleivers.

Can you open a thread and offer these scriptures that calles for to illtreat or kill unbelievers, post it one by one if one wish, I am sure since you are follower of Mr Mount Sina, it will not be a problem for you.
Maybe with due time a can clear such misconception.

Good escapism.

Ignorance does not befit an answer.

Do you need any proof for a wound on the hand? It is there for all to see.....For Indians, no proof is needed, 90 million wiped out in 1000 years of Indian history.

How many Hindu's have a wound on the hand?
It makes a poor argument.

Without that Islam will disappear soon. Good Luck. Any religion that cant adapt will die and that includes Hinduism, so my statement was general. You believe in a book that claims the earth was created in six days.

I very much doubt it.
Open a thread. I can easily refute such polemic. Maybe I can offer some polemic for hinduism that will not be easy to digest but it won't make for a good atmosphere.

Salam

Skill.

[Sudarshan]

Well assured he is. He brings no new argument outside of Orientalist. Nothing new, just the sameregurgiated fact. Although it may seem to you that he's argument is not defeated, if one does not go outside his realm and looks elsewhere.

Oh yeah, then why dont you register and answer him? You guys only talk big.

don'te think you can find a country that is 50% muslim and 50% non-muslim, or 50% Christian and 50% non-christian, or 50% Bhudist and 50% non-Bhudhist.
I don't follow your logic.

I don't see the connection with demographic and what you are trying to conclude?
Can you be more clear.

Just shows that if muslim population grows up in a nation, they will quickly take over the nation. The entire history of the world says that.

How many Hindu's have a wound on the hand?
It makes a poor argument

There is no limit to that number.

Muslim wont allow other religions on their soil and when they came to India they tried very hard to wipe off Dharam but failed. They destroyed every temple and idol and those related to these temples, they could lay their hands on, thanks to the holy quran.

The reason is simple. Islam does not tolerate other religions and dont allow them to flourish or practice their religions and would do everything to subjugate them.

Please answer:

I want to come to Mecca and build a temple of Lord Vishnu and promote my tradition there. Can I do this? I will also setup a loudspeaker in the temple every morning to shout - "There is no God but Krishna, and Ramanuja is his messenger". Is this allowed or not? ( This is what muslims are doing every morning near my home). Can I sell or distribute copies of Bhagavad Gita in Mecca? I will also paste labels all round my house - My religion is the only true religion, and our messenger is the last". Are these allowed or not?

[Skillganon]

Oh yeah, then why dont you register and answer him? You guys only talk big.

No point, he does not post the refutation on his site, to give the impression he has not been refuted thoroughly.

Just shows that if muslim population grows up in a nation, they will quickly take over the nation. The entire history of the world says that.

What is your point?

There is no limit to that number.

Muslim wont allow other religions on their soil and when they came to India they tried very hard to wipe off Dharam but failed. They destroyed every temple and idol and those related to these temples, they could lay their hands on, thanks to the holy quran.

Can you expound further on the statement "Thanks to he Quran"

The reason is simple. Islam does not tolerate other religions and dont allow them to flourish or practice their religions and would do everything to subjugate them.

Can you bring something better than just your statement.

I want to come to Mecca and build a temple of Lord Vishnu and promote my tradition there. Can I do this? I will also setup a loudspeaker in the temple every morning to shout - "There is no God but Krishna, and Ramanuja is his messenger". Is this allowed or not? ( This is what muslims are doing every morning near my home). Can I sell or distribute copies of Bhagavad Gita in Mecca? I will also paste labels all round my house - My religion is the only true religion, and our messenger is the last". Are these allowed or not?

It is sacred ground and you cannot.

[saidevo]

Namaste Skill.

It is sacred ground and you cannot.

Then why the hell you people don't vacate the sacred grounds of Hindus such as Ayodhya, Mathura and Varanasi, which are far more ancient than your Mecca? Why do you people make such a hue and cry about the destruction of a dilapidated structure at Ayodhya even today, specially when you know that every mosque that has some history behind it is built on the shattered remnants of a Hindu temple?

Why Mecca? In Madurai, Tamilnadu, Muslims purchased a land in an agraharam (S.S. Colony) and built a mosque right in the middle of the houses of brahmins. This has caused much embarrassment the peace-abiding Hindus of the street. They are cordial and go about their daily business, but the peace is disturbed by the prayer call of muslims over the loudspeakers in the mosque, five times a day. Will the muslims allow Hindus to construct a new temple here in India right in the middle of their streets? If I set out on it, will they not complain to the authorities and see to it that I am prevented at any cost?

This is what we Hindus want from you Muslims: peaceful co-existence and respect for each other in a society of brotherhood that displays mutual tolerance. The Indian muslims do have such attitudes due to the tradition and culture of the soil, but these benevolent attitudes are constantly eroded by their mullahs, politicians and the influence of their headquarters at Arabia.

Even today, if you go to some Hindu temples in south India, you can see a muslim woman bring a sesame oil can and carefully apply oil to the lamps near the dvaja sthambham. In the recent Ganesh chaturti processions, muslims were active members and even headed the peace committee formed in Bombay and other areas to ensure smooth passing of the procession. A senior colleague of mine, a staunch muslim, had the portrait of Ganesh under the glass cover of his desk in office! He said that he frequently had dreams and visions of Lord Ganesh and that when he revealed this to the elder members of his society, they said that this man was lucky and blessed. This is the type of attitudes muslims throughout the world should foster and promote for peaceful co-existence. If it requires some rejections/changes/restructuring of their religious text, it must be done. If the mullahs and other religious authorities are hesitant to do it, the muslim public should make them see the reason. If it requires elimination ofl the terrorists who bear muslim names and commit horrendous murders, every muslim must actively support the cause against terrorism. take the initiative, and cooperate with the authorities. Just saying that the terrorists have no religion and they are not muslims does not work. Why doesn't the muslim public call for the issuance of a fatwa against terrorism? If they are really against terrorism, why don't the mullahs publicly declare that any muslim convicted of aiding or abetting terrorism would also be subjected to Islamic laws and be punished?

The sad fact that stares starkly on every civilized human face today is that either muslims do not take or support measures for peaceful co-existence or that their religion does not allow it. Every moderate muslim says that Islam is a peaceful religion and quote Quran, but the terrorists who commit their ghastly murders also quote the same Qurant and hadith. Obviously, only one of them could be right. The question is, who among the two is on the right side?

[Sudarshan]

It is sacred ground and you cannot.

QED.

All the charges levied here on Islam thus stand proved - thanks for admitting this.

The entire Bharatvarsha is sacred to Hindus and you were not supposed to invade India, destroy temples and build mosques over them. So you apply one rule to yourself and another rule for others? What a non muslim is not allowed to do in Mecca, the same thing should not be allowed for a muslim elsewhere. That is justice. I wonder when Hindus will see through this hypocrisy.