Judas and satan

[nitinsharma]

Christian has always been,will be about fearing god and nothing else.......no wonder they have so many 'followers'.

[wcrow]

Wcrow, what about reincarnation? I know of no major church that accepts it. What's your view?

We believe that the soul is created immediatly and at the same time as the body, by God, at conception. There was a debate on reincarnation and the pre-existance of the soul in the early church, but it was condemned by many of the Fathers of the church.

Christian has always been,will be about fearing god and nothing else.......no wonder they have so many 'followers'.

We fear God, in the true sense of the word - awe, reverence ect. Much deeper is love - you may not see it in many people today, but it is there. Love of God is the deepest mystery of christianity. We say that the Holy Trinity is love. Loving God, and knowing he is merciful does not in anyway diminish the fact that he is our creator and there will always be a gap between us, that we follow him and obey him - not our of "fear", but awe, reverence, love. If you fail someone you love, you are upset - yes?
The idea of God as Just is there in Scripture, but far greater is that of him as life. We prefer to see hell not as a punishment, but as a natural consequence of willingly cutting onself off from God. Rules are necessary because we need to know what cuts ourself off from God, and what does not.

I see that apparently you considered Sanatana Dharma as a path, what makes you chose christianity instead? Family? Tradition?

No, my family are Atheist. I read the bible, and realised what I had rejected for so long was there in the person of Christ.

[PatrickMB]

I was raised Roman Catholic and still attend mass with my family. I have not renounced my membership as of yet.

For me, reincarnation and the eventual perfection of the soul toward moksha is much more loving and compassionate than the belief that is, in effect "one life then you go to hell."

[sanjaya]

I personally don't agree with christianity based in its history that makes me have little credibility for it. Adding to this the skewed visions of the churches, it doesn't sound appealing to me.

This is largely my approach too. I don't believe in any of Christianity, and I have no intention of converting. But as long as Christians keep their missionaries out of India, I'm content to leave them alone too. Problem is, that tends not to be the case.

We fear God, in the true sense of the word - awe, reverence ect. Much deeper is love - you may not see it in many people today, but it is there. Love of God is the deepest mystery of christianity. We say that the Holy Trinity is love.

Hindus also love God. We revere God as well. So I'm not entirely sure what makes these unique qualities of Christianity. Christianity, however, adds in a concept of eternal punishment. I think this makes the Christian God one to be feared, and not merely in the sense of reverence. Maybe I'm missing something. I know you say the Orthodox don't view hell as a punishment. But it's hard to read New Testament passages about weeping and gnashing of teeth and see it as a good thing.

The idea of God as Just is there in Scripture, but far greater is that of him as life. We prefer to see hell not as a punishment, but as a natural consequence of willingly cutting onself off from God. Rules are necessary because we need to know what cuts ourself off from God, and what does not.

I think the problem for most of us Hindus would be that condemnation to hell isn't based upon behavior, but on whether or not one is a Christian. I know the Orthodox Church claims ignorance on the fate of non-Christians, but I see this as a cop out for the sake of political correctness (no personal offense intended to you). Christianity has traditionally afforded salvation only to Christians. My understanding is that the requirement for salvation is a specific set of beliefs concerning Jesus. Hindus don't share those beliefs, so you see why this makes relations between Hindus and Orthodox Christians a bit awkward.

[TheOne]

The thing is Church doctrine is never final, with the invention of the trinity, all the way up to the 1960's in Vatican 2, there are always HUGE additions to doctrine. Some of which are, giving black people a soul, condemning antisemitism, and the prohibition of contraceptives. Other doctrines from earlier years were, that Jews rejected gods promise and deserved eternal damnation, that astrology should be banned not because it is irrational but because it takes power away from the Church, among various other silly doctrines which were invented and later recanted in the churches 2k year history.

[sanjaya]

The thing is Church doctrine is never final, with the invention of the trinity, all the way up to the 1960's in Vatican 2, there are always HUGE additions to doctrine. Some of which are, giving black people a soul, condemning antisemitism, and the prohibition of contraceptives. Other doctrines from earlier years were, that Jews rejected gods promise and deserved eternal damnation, that astrology should be banned not because it is irrational but because it takes power away from the Church, among various other silly doctrines which were invented and later recanted in the churches 2k year history.

Indeed. The stuff you've mentioned is largely Catholic doctrine (the black people thing sounds Mormon though). The Protestants basically invented a bunch of new doctrines in the middle ages too, and even went so far as to revise the Bible. What kind of "truth" is variable? I find Christians to be on shaky footing to say that their religion is true.

[TheOne]

Whoops, yeah, the black people having souls is definitely a Mormon thing, sorry about that.

[sanjaya]

Whoops, yeah, the black people having souls is definitely a Mormon thing, sorry about that.

Heh, no apologies necessary. Actually I find the Mormons to be an interesting variant of Christianity. Evangelicals consider the Mormons to be utterly ridiculous, not realizing that the rest of us consider evangelical Christianity to be equally ridiculous.

On one point, however, I will credit the evangelicals. Strangely, they seem to have more or less purged racism from their ranks. I charge evangelicals with many wrongs, but I will say that hatred of blacks isn't one of them.

[wcrow]

The thing is Church doctrine is never final, with the invention of the trinity, all the way up to the 1960's in Vatican 2, there are always HUGE additions to doctrine. Some of which are, giving black people a soul, condemning antisemitism, and the prohibition of contraceptives. Other doctrines from earlier years were, that Jews rejected gods promise and deserved eternal damnation, that astrology should be banned not because it is irrational but because it takes power away from the Church, among various other silly doctrines which were invented and later recanted in the churches 2k year history.

Dogma most certainly is final, which is why Rome excommunicated the east for not adding "filioque" to the creed. I can't answer for Catholics or Protestants, but I can tell you that what we proclaim in the creed and the councils is final and definitive. The rest can, and does, change as people change.
I notice you are basing most of your criticism on caricatures of Catholic teaching.
You want to find a source for that "invention of the trinity" thing you keeps saying? I can certainly find many sources that say the opposite.

Hindus also love God. We revere God as well. So I'm not entirely sure what makes these unique qualities of Christianity. Christianity, however, adds in a concept of eternal punishment. I think this makes the Christian God one to be feared, and not merely in the sense of reverence. Maybe I'm missing something. I know you say the Orthodox don't view hell as a punishment. But it's hard to read New Testament passages about weeping and gnashing of teeth and see it as a good thing.

The thing with Gehenna is, that do you really think giving people another chance would do anything if they have decided against God? That is our position. There has got to be a point where a decision has to be made. Anyway, the Orthodox position is that there can be change in ones salvation after death. Nothing is final until the Last Judgement. Some have even advocated for a universalist position, while not denying the reality of eternal hell. We may hope for universal reconcilliation.

I think the problem for most of us Hindus would be that condemnation to hell isn't based upon behavior, but on whether or not one is a Christian.

Well, that is not entierly true. We know that there is a path to God, and it can be found in the Orthodox Church. We don't believe "once saved, always saved" - you can be a bad christian and not make it to heaven.

Christianity has traditionally afforded salvation only to Christians. My understanding is that the requirement for salvation is a specific set of beliefs concerning Jesus. Hindus don't share those beliefs, so you see why this makes relations between Hindus and Orthodox Christians a bit awkward.

I think I can say that salvation is by grace alone - sola gratia.

[nitinsharma]

Hey Crow,who do you think you're kidding???Don't you know how the cutheans got these many people with them in the first place....it definitely wasn't infinite love....just in case you don't-cold blooded mass murder,mass manipulation and I can go on all day.So any thing conceived on such violence is a load of trash.Way I see it,its some kind of a human domestication program or something.Btw,I bet a few hundred years ago you would be named something like Pippin,Griffin,Merlin;whatever.Even A million years ago I would've been Named 'Nitin' and nothing else.....Sanatana Dharma means eternal religion.Go take your "God" elsewhere.Stupid Christian Faggots.