I have no problem with hindus converting to other religions as long as it is their choice.Many hindus including me would not bother much about such conversions.This point was not made to illustrate the right of people to convert but to explore the causes for why people convert. As you had asked:
Even Ambedkar Ji converted to Buddhism. Why?
I respect Ambedkar or for that matter anybody's right to convert.Hinduism doesnt recommend killing apostates.
Can you explore solutions to this problem. any ideas?So regardless of whether you respect him, why did Ambedkar convert? You did not answer the painful internal problem of social injustice. And instead simply made a cross comparison that Hindu's don't recommend killing apostates. And this is a weak answer, because modernly no Christian sects do either. And this is what I'm talking about this line of argument is creating a "straw man fallacy"So to prove these points the argument is relying on distortions of modern-day Christian teaching. And believe me, I'm no Christian apologist. It's just that the distortions are not factual. And hence the entire thesis becomes unbelievable. And it is clearly a propaganda piece designed to elicit agitation in an audience.
And to what purpose? Against all Christians in general?
Because the line of argumentation strikes at their fundamental beliefs to invalidate their scriptures and does not directly address the missionary factor which has long been manipulated by colonial governments as a point of "interpretation." But rather than looking at these elements, your Swami Devananda Ji is attacking Hindu's who dare to interpret Christian scriptures in a non-hostile way as being "ignorant."
So there is already an overlooked factor here. The factor of deliberate mis-interpretation by foreign colonial powers to use religion as a weapon of cultural suppression and subjugation.
And this is entirely independent from Christian religious teachings.
It bothers me because these missionaries spread lies about hinduism(and sikh religion, btw) ainstill hatred against hinduism and make enemies to the society in general.And my point was, in analyzing causes for mass conversions we have to look deeply at hatred instilled against the powers that be, which includes the central government of India as well as the authority of Hindu religion as being blamed by the disenfranchised, the discriminated, the neglected and the poor.
So these are social causes of malcontent that have nothing to do with issues like "freedom to convert" or "malicious bad intent of foreign governments funding missionaries" or even "ignorance in Christian doctrine."
yes, Counter the propoganda.After all the distractions we got to some sort of actionable discussions.If you think analyzing the corruption and brutality of the Indian government itself or the alienation of entire groups within it's population are not a prime factor in the conversion scenario, and are only some unrelated "distraction" then it's further proof that this thesis is biased to create scapegoats of blame rather than addressing actual underlying causes.
Quote: Why are you not speaking against the demonic injustices and corruptions which allowed an environment for the missionaries to thrive in the first place? How can it only be someone else's "demons" yet we fail to look at our own?
But you don't have to demonize their religion to do it. Let their actions speak for themselves. You don't have to speak against religion the way they speak against religion.
Why not?.if the teachings are demonic let that be exposed.
speak in the language which the attacker understands.
If you want to attack the attacker then speak to social justice and need for reform. They do! And that's why they're winning.
Social justice. Institutional reforms. Defense of human rights and human dignity. Giving dasvandh to those communities which really need it. When society addresses these kinds of internal problems,
That is good and needs to be done whether there are missionaries are not.It's not laughable. It's pathetically sad. But their scriptures were written 2 thousand years ago, and I respect that Western society has itself evolved beautifully out of the slave owning era and so have their modern religious teachings. So again this is just a straw man which has nothing to do with anything.
It is laughable that these christians talk about castesim when their bible speaks about owning slaves.
The problem of casteism is directly related to the racist colonialism of British as well as the hatred of Hinduism of the Mughal dynasties. Casteism in it's current form is an oppression fundamentally opposed to the original intent of the Vedas, Shastras and Puranas. So it is not "Hindu" teaching. It is reinterpretation of Hindu teaching by corrupted powers. Education will clearly point this out without need to resort to unbelievable counter assertions such as "Christianity teaches you can own slaves." When everybody knows it doesn't. Maybe 2 thousand years ago. Maybe 250 years ago. But not today. When the missionaries are attacking casteism, they are attacking injustices of today. That is why they are listened to. Dharmic people should also be loudly addressing the social injustices of casteism so it is clear we aren't approving or tolerant of it. Our silence to speak on behalf of the oppressed is why they are finding another voice to speak on their behalf. So it is our failing. And it is our responsibility to make an outreach to the disenfranchised Hindu people worldwide and those most especially neglected and vulnerable to foreign exploitation.
if the teachings are demonic let that be exposed.I wanted to go back to this veer ji. Do you know how Guru Gobind Singh Ji spoke to Aurangzeb?
speak in the language which the attacker understands.
He told the chilling clear truth in love.
He did not insult. He did not degrade. He did not malign the Muslim religion. He chastised Aurangzeb for cruelty and misconduct as going against the precepts of his own religion. Read the Zafarnama sometime.
And do you know what was the result? Aurangzeb repented. He repented the slaughter of the Guru's family and children.
"The letter reads like a reprimand by a superior personality on a higher plane to a cruel and distorted inhuman being on a lower and pitiful plane. Guru Ji in the 111 verses of this notice rebukes Aurangzeb for his weaknesses as a human being and for excesses as a leader. Guru Ji confirms his confidence and his unflinching faith in the Almighty even after suffering extreme personal loss...
Dharma is not about falling from a higher plane into a lower one to behave just like someone on a lower plane. Dharma is about rising. It is the spiritual responsibility to lift oneself up and to be an uplifting example for others. Dharma is about lifting others up through right actions, right speech, right intention, right goals.
Though parts of the letter are an indictment of Aurangzebparts of the letter are like one from an older wiser veer (brave or valiant brother) more in touch with the part of the jyot of God in his heart, who though terribly wronged on one plane, is asking his lost veer, who he sees as having lost touch with the promise of his own religion and its Holy Koran, to return to the fold of brotherly love and make things right between them again. Amazingly 6 verses actually praise Aurangzeb...
The Emperors peace of mind had been shaken, he wrote another letter to his sons in which he states "I do not know who I am, where I am, where I am to go and what will happen to a sinful person like me. Many like me have passed away wasting their lives. Allah was in my heart but my blind eyes failed to see him. I do not know how I will be received in Allah's court. I do not have any hope for my future, I have committed many sins and do not know what punishments will be awarded to me in return".
The Zafarnama had a demoralising effect on Emperor Aurangzeb who saw his end looming over the horizon and his future appeared very bleak. He saw Guru Gobind Singh Ji as his only hope who could show him the right and truthful path, as hinted by Guru ji in his epistle. Although he had greatly wronged the Guru he knew him to be a man of God and wanted to meet with the Guru personally to seek redemption." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Zafarnama
Greater oppression against converts or militant's families cannot possibly be a solution. When you praised KPS Gill's results against the militancy, you also praised his methods. The focus is crystal clear.
I dont think anybody recommended any such measure on this forum
This thread is about "Onslaught of Adharmic Religions"
Shall we stay focussed.
We should not sink to the level of Adharma to achieve political success or we are no different then Aurangzeb.
And moreover, we need to evaluate and properly address the root causes behind why the Christian missionaries are gaining a foothold among disenfranchised populations. If we work toward social justice and institutional reform as a goal, we have the power to make Dharma shine bright as more than empty words and false promises.
And that means not praising or ignoring evil at work in our own society. At least we would have their respect if we could acknowledge wrongdoing for what it is and stop justifying perpetrators all the time.
Would Ambedkar Ji have ever left Hindu religion if he felt he could work within the existing social structures to initiate powerful reforms for social justice? He left Hinduism ashamed that the entrenched political and social corruptions prevented reform.
They are still preventing reform.
THIS is what we need to address to stop the onslaught of adharmic philosophies, religions and movements. No one would listen to those other voices if only we could live Dharmically and represent in our society what Dharma really means.
ਕਮਾਲਿ ਕਰਾਮਾਤ ਕਾਯਮ ਕਰੀਮ ॥ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੋ ਰਾਜ਼ਿਕ ਰਿਹਾਕੁਨ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥Now there is no pacifism here. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was willling to fight to the death against injustice. But He Himself was never unjust and never let slip an opportunity to promote peace, reconciliation and understanding. He was ever Guru. The light that shines in darkness.
KAMAAL-E KARAAMAT QAA-YEM KAREEM, RAZA BAKSH RAZAQ RAHAAQ-O RAHIM (1)
Waheguru is perfection personified. He is eternal and through His miracles He shows His presence. He is generous in granting us His bounties. He is compassionate and merciful.
ਅਮਾਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਹ ਓ ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ॥ ਖ਼ਤਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ ਰੋਜ਼ੀ ਦਿਹੋ ਦਿਲ ਪਜ਼ੀਰ ॥੨॥
AMAAN BAKSH BAKSHINDEH-O DASTGIR, KHATAA BAKSH ROZI DEH-O DILPAZIR (2)
He grants us the peace and security and is always merciful in forgiving us for our sins. He holds our hand and guides us (in this world). He is provider of our sustenance and charms everyone.
~From the Zafarnama sent by Sacha Patshah Guru Gobind Singh Ji to Emperor Aurangzeb
This is Dharma. This should be our platform and perspective, not demonizing or outrageously distorting other faiths to make them hated. Point out wrong actions. Confront and stop wrong-doing. But don't become the hateful enemy.