Anger crisis with Jesus

[Sahasranama]

Namaste

And if the dog is Yamadharma?

Are you meaning to say that any and all Hindus who believe the gnostic version of Jesus as revealed in the ancient, not modern, Nag Hammadi scriptures, and subscribe to the "Jesus in India" hypothesis are not real Hindus?

Namaste

The dog is not yama.

There is no historical record of Jesus going to India, these stories were made up by later Christians who visited India and wanted to make link between India and Jeebus to convince Indians to convert to Christianity. And of course, anyone who beliefs in or worships Jeebus, gnostic or otherwise, cannot be a real Hindu. If someone wants to study the Nag Hammadi texts and look for similarities, because they have too much time on their hands, that is absolutely fine. But as soon as people start calling Jeebus a realized yogi or an avatara, they are perverting Hindu Dharma and twisting historical facts.

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

There is no historical record of Jesus going to India, these stories were made up by later Christians who visited India and wanted to make link between India and Jeebus to convince Indians to convert to Christianity.

Would it make sense for Hindus to try to convert Abrahamics by alleging that Sri Krishna was somehow some kind of minor prophet? Does one make the primary figure of one's religion a minor figure in another to convert them? I can't see the logic there.

There is historical record - in India, in Islamic accounts, in Buddhist accounts, in the Acta Thomae - and, by the way, it's a historical fact that Thomas went to India (and in the Acta Thomae is a passage strongly suggesting if not explicitly saying that Jesus was with him), and even a Chinese record. Also physical evidence in Muree, Pakistan, the Rozabal in Srinagar and the Throne of Solomon nearby, as well as the presence of the Beni Israel people in J&K, and corresponding linguistic evidence.

And of course, anyone who beliefs in or worships Jeebus, gnostic or otherwise, cannot be a real Hindu.

Why not please? If Jesus is an accomplished yogi, then I would think he is worthy of worship. I personally don't worship him, but are people wrong to worship say... Shirdi Sai Baba?

Hm, let me ask for that matter: are people who worship Sathya Sai Baba (I regard him as a fake) fake Hindus?

If someone wants to study the Nag Hammadi texts and look for similarities, because they have too much time on their hands, that is absolutely fine.
But as soon as people start calling Jeebus a realized yogi or an avatara,
they are perverting Hindu Dharma and twisting historical facts.

If the sentiments expressed in the gnostic texts are not those of a realized yogi, I do not know how to recognize such.


Namaste

[Sahasranama]

Namaste



Would it make sense for Hindus to try to convert Abrahamics by alleging that Sri Krishna was somehow some kind of minor prophet? Does one make the primary figure of one's religion a minor figure in another to convert them? I can't see the logic there.

I never said that the Christians who made up this story were behaving logically.

There is historical record - in India, in Islamic accounts, in the Acta Thomae - and, by the way, it's a historical fact that Thomas went to India (and in the Acta Thomae is a passage strongly suggesting if not explicitly saying that Jesus was with him), and even a Chinese record.

No, these are not historical. I suggest you do a little bit more research, you can start here: http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com/ab...ev-srinivasan/

Why not please? If Jesus is an accomplished yogi, then I would think he is worthy of worship. I personally don't worship him, but are people wrong to worship say... Shirdi Sai Baba?

Hm, let me ask for that matter: are people who worship Sathya Sai Baba (I regard him as a fake) fake Hindus?

Please, don't get me started about Sai Baba.

If the sentiments expressed in the gnostic texts are not those of a realized yogi, I do not know how to recognize such.
Namaste

No worries, not everyone can recognize a realized yogi and many people fall trap following fake yogis.

Even if you thought that these statements were made by a "real yogi," it would be fallacious to conclude that therefore they must have been uttered by the true Jesus.

[Twilightdance]

Further, the Sanatana Dharma is not so by virtue of being confined to any particular culture or limited claim to truth.

Certainly not, but if we want to look for universal archetypes of spiritual truth we should also do it from outside the box of Hinduism [sanatana dharma is a nice universal name, but the truth is that this culture is very indic]. And if we look for universal archetypes I believe there are more interesting things than those involving the Jeebus ghost. Why not Norse Gods who share some similarities with Vedic Gods, why not study Voodoo along with tantra, Tao with Yoga? And if Abhrahamism is our interest, I believe the spiritual offshoots in Judaism will be much more true than Jeebus spirituality.

But the truth is we do a very poor job of even showing good understanding of the things which we are most familiar with, all our lives. What chance is there to do correct assessment and understanding of things which are in entirely different cultures? Plus when we do this, one should analyse why the Jeebus ghost gets more attention than the Norse God Thor [except to Stan Lee], surely the later is a much more inspiring character.

Stormbringer, who binds the giants in chains of fear
Red Fury, who laughs with joy as hammer falls
You are the father they tried to blanket with mist
But your song of thunder shattered their chains of lies
And now I have found you , I have come home

[Shuddhasattva]

Certainly not, but if we want to look for universal archetypes of spiritual truth we should also do it from outside the box of Hinduism [sanatana dharma is a nice universal name, but the truth is that this culture is very indic]. And if we look for universal archetypes I believe there are more interesting things than those involving the Jeebus ghost. Why not Norse Gods who share some similarities with Vedic Gods, why not study Voodoo along with tantra, Tao with Yoga? And if Abhrahamism is our interest, I believe the spiritual offshoots in Judaism will be much more true than Jeebus spirituality.

But the truth is we do a very poor job of even showing good understanding of the things which we are most familiar with, all our lives. What chance is there to do correct assessment and understanding of things which are in entirely different cultures? Plus when we do this, one should analyse why the Jeebus ghost gets more attention than the Norse God Thor [except to Stan Lee], surely the later is a much more inspiring character.

Stormbringer, who binds the giants in chains of fear
Red Fury, who laughs with joy as hammer falls
You are the father they tried to blanket with mist
But your song of thunder shattered their chains of lies
And now I have found you , I have come home

Namaste

In my reading of the Eddas, I found the Norse religion to be rather like the Greek, with no real discernible esoteric meaning - if you can explain the same to me, I would be interested in learning more. The epics were... morally shallow to say the least.

Voodoo I didn't find to have anything truly comparable. Tao, I agree with - I see nothing but benefit resulting from the study of the Tao, perhaps primarily the study of chance that is rather lacking from the, in my opinion, overly deterministic view usually expressed in the Hindu context. Most everything else runs quite parallel. Another Chinese philosophy I would consider of interest is Mohism.

I agree with you about the mystical offshoot of Judaism - I am aware of only Qabbalah, are there others?, as well as Sufism of Islam. In my opinion, Sanatana Dharma should use these esoteric philosophies, which are not really in-line at all with the Abrahamic view, to subvert their Abrahamic parents, and bring people into the dharma.

May I ask if you have read any of the gnostic texts?

Here is a sample from the Apocryphon of John:

The One rules all. Nothing has authority over it.
It is the God.
It is Father of everything,
Holy One
The invisible one over everything.
It is uncontaminated
Pure light no eye can bear to look within. The One is the Invisible Spirit.
It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God.
It is more than just God.
Nothing is above it.
Nothing rules it.
Since everything exists within it
It does not exist within anything.
Since it is not dependent on anything
It is eternal.
It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing.
It is utterly perfect
Light.
The One is without boundaries
Nothing exists outside of it to border it
The One cannot be investigated
Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it
The One cannot be measured
Nothing exists external to it to measure it
The One cannot be seen
For no one can envision it
The One is eternal
For it exists forever
The One is inconceivable
For no one can comprehend it
The One is indescribable
For no one can put any words to it.
The One is infinite light
Purity
Holiness
Stainless,
The One is incomprehensible
Perfectly free from corruption.
Not “perfect”
Not “blessed”
Not “divine”
But superior to such concepts.
Neither physical nor unphysical
Neither immense nor infinitesimal
It is impossible to specify in quantity or quality
For it is beyond knowledge.
The One is not a being among other beings
It is vastly superior
But it is not “superior.”
It is outside of realms of being and time
For whatever is within realms of being was created
And whatever is within time had time allotted to it
The One receives nothing from anything.
It simply apprehends itself in its own perfect light
The One is majestic.
The One is measureless majesty
Chief of all Realms
Producing all realms
Light
Producing light
Life
Producing life
Blessedness
Producing blessedness
Knowledge
Producing knowledge
Good
Producing goodness
Mercy
Producing mercy
Generous
Producing generosity
[It does not “possess” these things.]
It gives forth light beyond measure, beyond comprehension.
[What can I say?]
His realm is eternal, peaceful, silent, resting, before everything.
He is the head of every realm sustaining each of them through goodness.

The Origin of Reality
[We would know nothing of the ineffable
And nothing of the immeasurable
Without the help of the one who comes forth
from the One who is the Father.
He alone has informed us.]

The Father is surrounded by light.
He apprehends himself in that light
[which is the pure spring of the water of life
that sustains all realms].
He is conscious of his image everywhere around him,
Perceiving his image in this spring of Spirit
Pouring forth from himself.
He is enamored of the image he sees in the light-water,
The spring of pure light-water enveloping him.
His self-aware thought (ennoia) came into being.
Appearing to him in the effulgence of his light.
She stood before him.
This, then, is the first of the powers, prior to everything.
Arising out of the mind of the Father
The Providence (pronoia) of everything.
Her light reflects His light.
She is from His image in His light
Perfect in power
Image of the invisible perfect Virgin Spirit.
She is the initial power
glory of Barbelo
glorious among the realms
glory of revelation
She gave glory to the Virgin Spirit
She praised Him
For she arose from Him.
[This, the first Thought, is the Spirit’s image]
She is the universal womb
She is before everything
She is:
Mother-Father
First Man
Holy Spirit
Thrice Male
Thrice Powerful
Thrice Named
Androgynous eternal realm
First to arise among the invisible realms.
She, Barbelo, asked the virgin Spirit for foreknowledge (prognosis).
The Spirit agreed.
Foreknowledge came forth and stood by Providence
[This one came through the Invisible Virgin Spirit’s Thought.]
Foreknowledge gave glory to the Spirit
And to Barbelo, the Spirit’s perfect power,
For She was the reason that it had come into being.

Primary Structures of the Divine Mind
She, Barbelo, asked the virgin Spirit for Incorruptibility
The Spirit agreed.
Incorruptibility came forth and stood by Thought and Foreknowledge.
Incorruptibility gave glory to the Invisible Virgin Spirit
And to Barbelo,
For She was the reason that it had come into being.
She asked for everlasting Life.
The Spirit agreed
Everlasting life came forth and they all stood together.
They gave glory to the invisible Spirit
And to Barbelo,
For She was the reason that it had come into being.
She asked for Truth.
The Spirit agreed
Truth came forth and they all stood together.
They gave glory to the invisible Spirit
And to Barbelo,
For She was the reason that it had come into being.
This is the fivefold realm of the Father:
The First Man who is
The Image of the Invisible Spirit who is
Providence who is
Barbelo who is
Thought.
And
Foreknowledge - Incorruptibility - Life Everlasting - Truth
[These are an androgynous fivefold realm - therefore it is a realm of ten - of the Father.]

*[Stevan Davies translation]

Should we dismiss the truth of this merely because it was not written in Sanskrit?

Namaste

[McKitty]

Certainly not, but if we want to look for universal archetypes of spiritual truth we should also do it from outside the box of Hinduism [sanatana dharma is a nice universal name, but the truth is that this culture is very indic]. And if we look for universal archetypes I believe there are more interesting things than those involving the Jeebus ghost. Why not Norse Gods who share some similarities with Vedic Gods, why not study Voodoo along with tantra, Tao with Yoga? And if Abhrahamism is our interest, I believe the spiritual offshoots in Judaism will be much more true than Jeebus spirituality.

Hello,

I studied a man named Joseph Campbell, I strongly recommand his books, like "the hero with thousand faces"

This man studied many cultures and many religions, not in a "new age" view, but in a serious study and with a real will to understand. He came to the conclusion that, in fact, in every culture and religion, it's the symbol that is important. And that if we think with symbols, we see that every culture is linked by them...
But ! In most religion, those symbols have been transformed, other symbols came wrongly assimilated with others, or covered with stories or people wrong.

One of the exemple is Death. As seen in western countries in general, the firgure of death is a hooded squeleton with a scythe. With chritianity, this depiction of Death was made to inspire fear, madness, in many paintings and sculpting in churches. So, Death is only something to fear, not to think about.

But if you look in the symbols, for exemple the scythe. It's not a weapon, it's a tool. A tool used to equalize, that cut everything at the same height: it is mean to remind us that, before Death, every man and woman, despite his money, appearance and rank, are equal before Death.
But it's also a tool to reap the weat, the nourishment, thus it can say that in the end, we are the fruit of what we sow in our life.


Those symbols got deformed, you can clearly see it in abrahamic religions (less in muslim, more in christianty) as paganism used those symbols to create a link, to easy the initiation to a god/godess, to, at the first gaze, know the attribute, the identity, the role of a God/Godess.

It really, for me, look like the mudras and ornements of Hindu Gods and Godesses.

Follower of Thor only wear the symbol of the hammer. The hammer is a tool to build, but were also used as a weapon during war !

Sadly symbols got deformed...In christianism mainly. But looking close to their meaning and see that everything is really linked, it's the tongue of the human subcounscious.


Aum~

[Twilightdance]

Namaste

In my reading of the Eddas, I found the Norse religion to be rather like the Greek, with no real discernible esoteric meaning

My own take is that vast section of the vedic samhitas have little "esoteric" in them [but I find often that the branded exoteric hides the deepest truths], I don't see too much difference in praise of Thor's valor to Indra's.

Voodoo I didn't find to have anything truly comparable.

I don't agree, much of what we call shat-karmas might have better and more potent alternative in voodoo, or the issue of direct communion with dieties, possession etc which are integral part of kaula tantra is seen in voodoo. Same with amazonian shamanism. From what little I have read, during initiation one is put into a direct communion with the Gods to receive direct instruction. In Tantra's such methods is highly desirable also, but is only available to Siddhas, it seems. Direct initiation by Yoginis is left as a high possibility but there is nothing practical on how it is achieved.

Tao, I agree with - I see nothing but benefit resulting from the study of the Tao, perhaps primarily the study of chance that is rather lacking from the, in my opinion, overly deterministic view usually expressed in the Hindu context. Most everything else runs quite parallel. Another Chinese philosophy I would consider of interest is Mohism.

Fully agree.

I agree with you about the mystical offshoot of Judaism - I am aware of only Qabbalah, are there others?, as well as Sufism of Islam. In my opinion, Sanatana Dharma should use these esoteric philosophies, which are not really in-line at all with the Abrahamic view, to subvert their Abrahamic parents, and bring people into the dharma.

But history shows that its been the other way round. As an example, Sufism were the early heralds of the oncoming Islamic onslaught. Sufi history is full blood and the most fearless destructive warriors of Islamic Jehad were often their mystic band of sufi warriors. Sufi "Saints" have always been one of the biggest conversion agents for Islam.

From mysticsm p.o.v why only Sufi, I believe there is a lot within the Ismaili sects of Islam which may be more interesting than Sunni Sufism. May be more practical and actual techniques than just inspired poetry.

But as History shows, they cannot be used to subvert mainstream Islam because these sects have themselves subverted and accepted the core of Islam. What doesn't tie with Islam they hide using taqiyya system. They have been agents of Islam for well over 1000 years and have been integral to the Islamic mission for world dominance and the mission to replace humanity in humans with wholesale barbarism. All the inspired poetry did not find any problems with Muhammad's wet dream conception of Islamic heaven, his pedophilia, he butchery - instead they proverbially they did a "I jump in it".

But if you insist, then Good luck to you. But you have to understand why Hindu's [and I am not a Hindu in the true sense of religion] don't find it particularly appealing.

May I ask if you have read any of the gnostic texts?

No, and no thanks.

Here is a sample from the Apocryphon of John:

Ok. But poetry does not appeal me unless those of valor and bravery or something practical. I don't read the Upanishads and have discarded Vedanta for same reasons. Not ideal may be - but just a personal preference. So given your preview probably I won't find this Gnostic Christianity very interesting anyway. Kashmir Shaivism already provides enough Gnosis.

Should we dismiss the truth of this merely because it was not written in Sanskrit?

Namaste

Surely not. I will personally focus on things not found adequately in Hinduism. From that regard Tao tops the list to my knowledge. And inspired poetry is the last - but that's personal preference. But my other main point, "Can we actually do it, since we misunderstand things right before our eyes all our lives?" needs to be stressed again. Can we actually fully understand the deeper implication of Gnostic Christianity when we struggle to understand our own culture properly?

But problem with Mystical Islam [I am not sure about Mystical Christianity] is by submitting themselves to the barbarism and becoming their aggressive agents they offer some nectar [i personally didn't like it anyway as I have said] laced in huge dose of poison. Since I am not shiva nor the proverbial swan, I refuse the drink. World doesn't loose its appeal if I keep aside the Abrahamic mysticism out of sight.

Yes, if a turkish darbesh comes and really denounces Islam first - we may benefit from the knowledge, but not before that.