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Thread: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

  1. #1

    A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    prNAm to readers one and all

    This may sound like nothing new to many , but to me its a major realization. This truth has dawned on me , not just in thought and theory, but as an experience , both gradually and suddenly, by the grace of the Lord , all shiksha Gurus and UshA , the 'dawn'.


    Two Statements :

    1. Says Radha : The Supreme Person Krshna
    is my Husband, Guru and most dear Friend.
    He is the Supreme Lord, and their is nothing beyond.


    2. Says a Jnani : Brahman is Nirgun, NirAkAr,
    has no form but can take AkAr.


    Can both statements be true AT ONCE ? YES, they can, they ARE.
    Can God be formless and with form, Nirgun and Sagun, A Person and Impersonal at once ? YES, He can, He IS.

    Nirgun Brahman == Sagun Krshna (a repository of Gunas and oppulences)
    Sagun Krshna == Nirgun Brahman

    To Radha , there is nothing beyond Krshna. Never does she lose sight of Him.
    What happens when Radha and Krshna take 7 rounds around AgnI ?
    They unite and culminate into Radhe-ShyAm.
    Neither remains RAdhA , nor remains ShyAm
    What remains is THAT - pin-drop blissful silence of Turya, NirAkAr
    Radhe-ShyAm is not a person, it is THAT, formless principle , Brahman NirAkAr

    On MahAShivratri Day : Shiva weds UmA
    This marraige result in the culmination of Shiva-Shakti
    Neither remains UmA nor remains Shankar
    What remains is THAT - pin-drop blissful silence of Turya, NirAkAr
    UmA-Shankar is not a person, it is THAT, formless principle , Brahman NirAkAr

    What is Radhe-ShyAm, UmA-Shankar ?
    What is Lakshmi NArAyan, SitA-RAm ?
    Radha, Krshna, Vishnu, Lakshmi, Shiva, Parvati are WITHIN US.
    This statement is not some distant theory anymore !

    RAdhA is the Knower of Krshna , the Known,
    To Her there is nothing beyond Him, none, many or one
    This is Advaita Bhakti alone.....

    But RAdhe-ShyAm is THAT alone
    THAT is the Knower as well as the Known
    It is the Adi and Anta that Krshna says is Him
    It is AnAdi , Ananta, the source and the sink
    THIS is Advaita JnAna, He said with a wink

    And THAT my dear is Brahman say wise people
    Aham Brahmasmi , but that is not all,
    Tat tvam asi, THAT THOU ART !
    But do not rush, or put the horse before the cart


    OH my God ! What have You done !
    I don't believe this, I can't contain this
    What is THIS ?
    THIS , my dear is none other than THAT !

    Should I run 5 miles , will I get over it ?
    Not so easy, stay with this bliss
    This bliss is sought after, but only if you are ready for it.

    So never misunderstand , that Deities are "a means to an end"
    Do not misread wise statements like "Deities are landmarks"
    If such statements make one shudder, that my dear is a sign
    that they are not ready for JnAna, that Bhakti alone is their path
    Should stay with it , its wisdom, sweetness, n' love that lasts.


    ~ ~

    Stories from the Garden, Feb 18 2010


    =========

    TERMS

    Nirguna = without attributes
    NirAkAr = formless
    Turya = State of Supreme Consciousness
    Adi = beginning
    anAdi = without beginning
    anta = end
    ananta = without end, endless
    JnAna = wisdom and knowledge of the Eternal Supreme , in this case, Brahman
    Bhakti = devotion
    Last edited by smaranam; 18 February 2010 at 03:59 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #2

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Similarly as husband and wife before marriage celebrate their birthdays , which happen to be two .After marriage the date is celebrated as one [Marriage day] , No seperate Identity[ nirgun ] .

  3. #3

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    Similarly as husband and wife before marriage celebrate their birthdays , which happen to be two .After marriage the date is celebrated as one [Marriage day] , No seperate Identity[ nirgun ] .
    Thank You Guptaji , for adding to the pool of wisdom.

    When a person starts out in this life on Jnana path, that's different, but even Shankaracharya does not recommend that for all.

    However, when one involuntarily starts walking the path of quiet contemplation , after seeing , sensing , tasting Bhakti , as Radha being one and ShyAm another, then that is the winding path of Radhe-ShyAm , Purusha-Prakrti i.e. Brahman.

    First they do not realize why, and where they are heading. The courage to stay comes with ShyAm's assurance that He never leaves, and its not
    like Radha does not exist after. The end (and beginning) is neither one of them, but something else : Radhe-ShyAm.

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #4

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    If Saguna were not a projection of the Nirguna for us , earthlings, if Saguna Brahman was IT, I wonder how the extra-terrestrial beings on other planets , in other galaxies would react and relate to BhagavAn in a personal way ?

    OR, conversely, how does Brahman project Himself for the sake of those extra-terrestrials ?
    With Shankha Chakra GadA Padma ?
    Yellow PitAmbar ? Yellow of Hari's pitAmbar symbolizes the silicon-dioxide which mostly represents earth , acc. to Swami ChinmayAnanda in "Glories of Krishna"
    Lotus eyes are the best , I can understand those could be "universal"

    Vayjayanti Haar ?? I did not know there were flowers in other galaxies, also
    real Lotuses. Or peacocks for that matter. Where would the Lord get those feathers from ? And the bamboo for the flute, can it grow on Pozidon ?

    Please don't get me wrong. I love Hari the way He presents Himself to us,earthlings.

    How can we assume He is only made for humans ? Do we have proof that there is no Jiva-jad prakruti, manifest life anywhere else except on earth ?
    Are we claiming that earthlings are the only ones around ?
    And if the whole fight and war against Advaita VedAnta waged by dualists , is out of possible danger to theism, that's perfectly understandable, and I say this :

    Is prem (Love) so weak ? That we have to box and bash the advaitic Truth for prem to survive ?
    Will accepting the advaitic param Absolute Truth (not by all, by those who appreciate it) leave no room for Leela with Parameshwar ?
    Will it weaken our Love of God , or even make any difference to that Love ? Just because we now know that this sweetness is VyAvahAric Satya only (relatively real) albeit eternal for all practical purposes ?



    Sant Dnyaneshwar wrote in his BhAvArtha DeepikA :
    BG12.16 <--> Ovee 172 to 189: ...THAT devotee reached the limit of "I am That Brahman" in the spirit (bhAv) of sameness (sAmyAvasthA), and has become complete by reaching the other shore of duality (dvait). There is no room for duality in his mind, yet keeps the minimum duality and enjoys the bliss of devotion to Me. He divides his heart into two compartments. To one he gives My name (for Me to dwell) and stays in the other half.....
    SwAmi VivekAnanda said in one of his DnyAna(Jn~ana) Yog lectures :
    IF you think the Ved-purANa are all mythology, then you are an even bigger mythology !
    That made me laugh. So true. Saguna Brahman may be a projection of Nirguna Brahman , but it is certainly more real than the transmigrating, transient, jIva (sukshma sharIra - subtle body) which is really just a character in Ishwar's dream !

    All bhUta are swimming in Ishwar's dream as long as they have not woken up. What does the awakened jiva do ? She has all the freedom to

    >> Just be as in exist !
    >> Love and adore her Lord all she wants
    >> Love the whole wide world as her own Self
    >> Be the witness to the dream ( her own BMI and the world )

    Sky is the limit for such a being.
    Humility becomes an adorned ornament.
    Working for others , helping 'others' is helping her Self or the Lord, she being Brahman, one without a second.
    No qualms , pursuits, Asakti remains so she can walk , skate, glide and fly with the Lord, who is her very Self, on her side.
    She may be subject to hardships, pain, misery, but knows she is Brahman, neither the dream events nor the BMI.


    Shri Krshna Govind Hare MurAre
    He NAth NArAyana VAsudeva
    Last edited by smaranam; 18 March 2010 at 07:59 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste
    All jIvas are swimming in Brahman's dream as long as they have not woken up. What does the awakened jiva do ? She has all the freedom to
    Namaste smaranam

    Nice series of posts. I hope you will not mind my intrusion, perhaps? I am intruding to clarify a point, as I understand.

    Brahman-Atman is only Sat-Chit-Ananda, which is not a Knower. It is only the Seer. The Knower, the vigyaan atman is formed of consciousness by Atman. Vigyaan Atman - the Purusha, is the functional form for the function of knowing but it is essentially consciousness, since knowing is impossible without consciousness.

    Purusha of Thousand heads is all this. With limbs and heads He has entered 36,000 forms of arka (fire-desire). Each of these 36 thousand arka (fire) forms are as great as the primordial arka, the Purusha. Most of these forms are of Pasus. But some are controllers.

    If the mind knows fully the 'M (Purusha-Sarvesvara)' of AUM or knows the OM as one indivisible, the effects are same. The various Rivers (16 outgoing kalAs of Purusha) then lose their names and forms and become Purusha.

    Now, the above theory itself is probably a dreaming. Actually nothing ever happened -- as nothing happens in deep sleep.

    -------------------

    There is no end to imagination at all. It is andimat - without beginning. To stop that, a very simple Advaita approach, as I understand, is to understand and remember that OM is all these diverse things, only when OM is seen by a particular seer as consisting of parts and states. It is said in Dvaita that it is Atman alone who assigned the functions, so the coming out of that function is eternally not possible for the Jiva, who must continue in its nature. IMO, it is only partially correct, since, the particular form has as its essence the Atman alone.

    So one can meditate that OM actually is amAtra, indivisible, ungraspable, advaita, and changeless. That is why the highest Advaita sadhana is just "Soham". Another way is to practise Neti-Neti or "Who Am I?". All these are prescribed in shastra.

    Dvaita and VA and other streams have their own approaches suitable for particular persons. And those methods are also prescribed in shastra.

    The fights that go on are again good. Indra is always a fighter.

    Best Wishes and Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 18 March 2010 at 05:29 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #6

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste smaranam

    Nice series of posts. I hope you will not mind my intrusion, perhaps? I am intruding to clarify a point, as I understand.
    Namaste Atanuji, not at all. I am delighted to see you on this thread.
    Of Course, I stand corrected.

    Is the statement "All bhUta are swimming in Ishwar's dream" more accurate ? That's probably what i meant anyway. (There is another thread on which i have to correct this - "Tat Tvam Asi".) Although this is what 'occured' to me suddenly one day, BhAgvat says the world is MahAvishnu's dream, YogamAyA is of course involved.

    Brahman-Atman is only Sat-Chit-Ananda, which is not a Knower. It is only the Seer. The Knower, the vigyaan atman is formed of consciousness by Atman. Vigyaan Atman - the Purusha, is the functional form for the function of knowing but it is essentially consciousness, since knowing is impossible without consciousness.
    Although not entirely new, this is nectar. Let me digest it.
    So Brahman-Atman is the Sakshi ? Wouldn't that be the role of the functioning Purusha (vidnyAn-AtmA) as well ?


    Purusha of Thousand heads is all this. With limbs and heads He has entered 36,000 forms of arka (fire-desire). Each of these 36 thousand arka (fire) forms are as great as the primordial arka, the Purusha. Most of these forms are of Pasus. But some are controllers.
    This Purusha of Purusha Sukta is the sAkshyam - the witnessed as well as the witness. (sAkshi-sAskyam as i understand it) .

    The controllers are appearantly what we call the devas presiding on various (departmental) functions, forces and sub-tattvas.

    If the mind knows fully the 'M (Purusha-Sarvesvara)' of AUM or knows the OM as one indivisible, the effects are same. The various Rivers (16 outgoing kalAs of Purusha) then lose their names and forms and become Purusha.
    This is easy.

    Now, the above theory itself is probably a dreaming. Actually nothing ever happened -- as nothing happens in deep sleep.

    -------------------

    There is no end to imagination at all. It is andimat - without beginning. To stop that, a very simple Advaita approach.....
    Hmmm i understand (implying , this mind understands somewhat, in theory). It will go over this for a while....

    All this mind knows is it belongs to KRSNa. Of KRSNa , for KRSNa. irrespecticve of whether, to others, He is Ishwar , Brahman, SaguNa , NirguNa, pramAtmA or just ShyAmsundar VAsudev of DwApar Yuga.

    There are times when this mind wants to know Him or the source, and there are times when it doesn't want to know, doesn't care. He is mine that's it.

    It(mind) alternates between silence and activity whenever it naturally feels like, without having to lift a finger, as KRSNa(SELF) looks on. It had better stay away from this folder for a while.

    Best Wishes and Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    You (and all of you) have been revealing a lot of scriptural treasure that is food for the intellect.

    Many many humble praNAms

    Jai Sri KRSNa
    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by smaranam; 18 March 2010 at 02:49 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    [quote=smaranam;41574]

    This Purusha of Purusha Sukta is the sAkshyam - the witnessed as well as the witness. (sAkshi-sAskyam as i understand it) .
    Yes that is what the sruti teach. It is good and new to me that Purusha is witness and the witnessed. That I think is excellent.

    Is the statement "All bhUta are swimming in Ishwar's dream" more accurate ?
    That may be very correct yet I do not know Ishwara. I know that something in me sees/thinks/knows etc. As long as the knowing is of measurable/seeable objects, it is OK.

    But it has been told that the indivisible OM "I Am", the Self -the knower, who is all this, is unthinkable. Yet what can we do? We think of that which is unthinkable and take the thought/idea as "I am".

    Isn't it? So, this is saguna. It is OK as long as the view leads to goodness. But that is not always the case.

    I, as an advaitin, believe that thoug unthinkable "I am" is still the knowledge and the goal of knowledge, as taught in Vedanta and Gita. So, my methods are accordingly suited.

    Hope this small post increases clarity instead of increasing muddiness.

    Best Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #8

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    That may be very correct yet I do not know Ishwara. I know that something in me sees/thinks/knows etc. As long as the knowing is of measurable/seeable objects, it is OK.

    But it has been told that the indivisible OM "I Am", the Self -the knower, who is all this, is unthinkable. Yet what can we do? We think of that which is unthinkable and take the thought/idea as "I am".

    Isn't it? So, this is saguna. It is OK as long as the view leads to goodness. But that is not always the case.

    I, as an advaitin, believe that thoug unthinkable "I am" is still the knowledge and the goal of knowledge, as taught in Vedanta and Gita. So, my methods are accordingly suited.

    Hope this small post increases clarity instead of increasing muddiness.

    Best Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste

    It does increase clarity, thank you.
    The mind-intellect does not know Ishwar, but can theoretically accept that it is part of Ishwar's dream-creation. After all, the sAdhana is either thru' silence (beginning with silent observation of thought) - nidhidhyAsana , but also shravaNa, manana thru' the intellect.

    Certainly "I AM" is the fact, and the AUM way is better than or a compliment to neti neti.
    Which means that the silence after M of AUM is what this boils down to.

    I suppose the choices for the BMI are , either to maintain the silence , or alternate between silence and
    making use of what comes out of the silence to be with/do the best for Ishwar,
    which feeds back into the silence.
    That constitute Karma-Jn~Ana-Bhakti i guess, which are really all in the same place.

    Silence is Brahman
    Silence is Golden
    So Brahman is golden (the centre of the Sun) [just kidding]


    praNAm
    Last edited by smaranam; 19 March 2010 at 01:48 PM. Reason: quote source was garbled
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    [quote=smaranam;41633]
    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    So Brahman is golden (the centre of the Sun) [just kidding]
    praNAm

    Pranam Smaranam

    No kidding. The person in the Sun and the person in the right eye are one and same. That is a stupendous thing. The person is so vast. In the eye, He is seer Jivatman. In the Sun, He is Rudra or Surya Narayana, as per sampradaya. In the middle and everywhere, He is Brahman-Param Atman.



    Om namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste smaranam

    Dvaita and VA and other streams have their own approaches suitable for particular persons. And those methods are also prescribed in shastra.

    The fights that go on are again good. Indra is always a fighter.

    Best Wishes and Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    namaste atanuji,
    i always stop 2 read your posts fully and sometimes i come back and read again.but i am a bit confused with this stand.not only u but many advaitins say this.i am confused coz i am still in the process of clear understanding.in the commentaries,people clearly refute other views/schools.
    how does this statement of 'suits particular people' stand?
    dont get me wrong
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

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