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Thread: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

  1. #31

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    vivendi, I am amazed at your insight. Truly remarkable, you are able to figure things out about me that I did not even know, so conclusively. Pray tell, what kind of ice-cream do I like? What kind of music do I enjoy most? I am really really curious, and dying to know, please enlighten me.

    peace....
    Thank you dear brother Nara. Lets just say that I have a great insight and leave it at that. We are discussing philosophy here, not ice cream or music. In case if you happen to discuss the pros and cons of various ice creams and music, then I may choose to post about your likings there too. Unfortunately or fortunately, this forum is about discussing Hindu dharma we can focus on that for now.

  2. #32
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    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Jagat is not mitya, it is real, but its existence is completely dependent upon Brahman as the existence of a body is completely dependent on the jiva pervading it.

    VA rejects the concept of Nirguna Brahman as such a proposition that is contrary to all pramana, pratyaksha, anumana and shruti.

    While A can state that there is a Nirguna Brahman and that is moksham, it is only a stated position, not an indisputable fact totally consistent with the pramanas.

    Just my attempt at a little humor, that is all....

    Cheers!
    namaste,
    all the shrutis and puranas say that brahman is the only reality.when u say jagat is real,just tell me what is jagat?please explain jagat and reality seperately and then you explain how jagat is real.
    u say jagat which is 'real' is 'dependant' on brahman,which is what?a greater reality?how real is this jagat?
    and further u say,like a body dependant on jiva.body perishes.so body is not real,although we can see our body and do things through it.so this is not a valid reason.actually u cant find anything which supports the view of a reality depending on reality.and what is this jiva again?
    i think nirguna brahman and saguna brahman is the modern concept being evolved.brahman is defined as being nirguna always.even BG says that.i guess some where krishna says,i have no love or hate towards anyone....etc.scriptures apart,logically speaking, guna leads to karma and samsara.a person being born is bound by guna and karma.that is due to the wrong notion of 'i'.when we understand that the 'i' is not dependant on karma,etc.,the wrong notion vanishes.the guna takes effect only when there is karma,which is based on aishanas which is based on wrong notion of 'i'.as long as there is the wrong notion of 'i',we are not freed of guna and karma.so when there is no guna to jiva,how can we say there is guna to brahman?.then the mahavakya tat tvam asi will be a joke.coz anyway,we too have guna,and brahman too has guna,so why so much fuss about yoga,karma,meditation,liberation....etc..etc...
    i may be totally wrong.but this is my understanding.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

  3. #33

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I prefer two very simple logic. First, if the Truth is one, then what that Truth (you as Atman) imagines of a second entity (the world or Ishwara) can only be an imagination. It is imagination by the True of a non-existent entity. Thus Shri Krishna is Sat and Asat. Second, if the scripture asks us to know the Truth of Advaita Atman, then the knowing cannot involve knowing of a knower and another known. Scripture has very skillfully used the word "Advaita Atman". Knowing Advaita Atman cannot lead to knowing of another Atman.

    It is for you to stay fixed or to explore with genuine openness.

    My Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanuji

    I-the-mind understand, but did you-the-mind not say that AtmAn never imagines or dreams ? So i-the-mind said perhaps "Ishwar dreams up jivas and jagat" is more accurate than saying "Brahman dreams". Unless you mean 'vijn~yana Brahman'.

    Now, AtmAn that I AM, chooses to be "WE ARE" and stay "WE ARE".

    "We Are" as "Him and (insignificant)me"

    This is where WE choose to draw the line, whether it is considered NirguNa , SaguNa , both, or neither sat nor asat.

    Sant GorA KumbhAr sang in praise of PAnduranga Vitthal "NirguNAchA sanga dharilA jo Avadi kar katAvari theuniyA...." I do not have the exact words.
    In short he calls PAnduranga (KRSNa) NirguNa.

    So the gateway to the same NirguNa takes different forms - KRSNa, Shiva, Devi etc. To each , KRSNa Himself is the AtmAn and NirguNA Infinite or Shiva Himself is that NirguNa Infinite. They are not simply the outward peacock feather & flute OR jatA mukut & Crescent moon, etc.

    I am sure you agree with that.

    If you say this is saguNa or vyAvahAric , that's fine with me "We are saguNa-nirguNa"

    praNAm
    Jai Shri KRSNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 29 March 2010 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Gora Kumbhar
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #34

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Radha looked over the deck as the ship slowly moved towards the harbor. The Advaita VedAnta cruise was good, she learnt many things, but it was time to disembark. She pondered over the happenings in the last few days....

    How could she have not noticed such a fundamental piece - which does not acknowledge her existence, and prem ? What was she doing ??
    Wait a minute... perhaps KRSNa had sent YogaMAyA to cast a spell on her so she would not notice, and all the clues and words would go on deaf ears ? Simply because He wanted her to have a good time on the Vedanta cruise ? Undisturbed, so she would not disembark in the middle of it ? Since the cruise was what she wanted to do , to get to know Him better ? What kind of a tender Heart He has ! softer than butter.

    One qn they asked her was "why the need for another pair of eyes" Need ? That's what she is made for ! It only appears as a need, but in reality is existence.
    The error is in asking the wrong person - Radha.

    Radha is not a stand-alone AtmA, but KRSNa's creation, and the essence and purpose of her existence was adoration of KRSNa.

    KRSNa manifests Radha , but reaches out to the dream-jiva for the sake of the jiva. Jiva needs KRSNa. To bhaja that Govinda , jiva has to look into His Lotus Eyes.

    KRSNa is BhagavAn, sat-chit-Ananda , complete, and a bramhachAri as per GopAl TApani Upanishad. Yet He manifests Radha. Why ?
    The jiva witnesses Radha bloom as KRSNa keeps watering the plant.

    This qn (why two) is really questioning BhagavAn Shri KRSNa , of the existence of Radha
    and BhagavAn Shri VishNu, of the existence of Shri.

    Radha cannot 'not exist' , her manifestation is for a purpose. Even if she (in some absurd way) had the tools to do so, what right does she have to not exist , after being created , chosen and adored by KRSNa ? How could she even think of something like that ?

    So Radha lives for KRSNa, and KRSNa keeps Radha alive for Radha , which in turn is for Himself. They go in an infinite and recursive loop. This is Prem, not kAm. Surely they know that ? Prem is selfless, kAm is selfish.

    When it comes to a sAdhak-jiva (aspirant), certainly they have a point, as the selfless prem has not yet developed.
    However, prem is shAsvat (eternal) , pure (pavitra) and not to be mistaken for Myth- mithya- kAm, so say the AchAryas. Apparently this does not create any sansAr or jagat . Worldly attachment is mithya and kAm. This is why Radha-KRSNa have to leave Prakrti behind so she can let the dream-jagat continue... Radha is not part of the dream, just as Prakrti isn't.


    At some times and locations on the Purusha (latitude longitude) He manifests in the left eye, and at other times and locations He doesn't.
    Read as : For some aspirants, the involuntary calling is RAdhA, for some others, it could be the more Universal Shivo-AtmA. The key word is involuntary. Hence asking Radha the above qn is futile.


    ----------------------------------------


    She felt a gentle hand on her shoulder , which dizzied her with happiness "What are you thinking so deeply about, Radhe ?" (As if He did not know)
    She fought back tears before turning to Him "Nothing.... Thank You for a very good cruise , KAnhA, but i am glad it is over."
    "Why so soon ? Don't you want to go further south and see ...."
    "I don't think so KAnhA"
    She looked at the Gentle One . Did not want to tell Him that she would become the reason for more aparAdh (offense) to Him. The people she met on the cruise were not at fault , they were just following their school. May KRSNa bless them , may Shiva bless them..... they ARE blessed............. She paid her heartfelt obeissances to them.

    praNAm
    Last edited by smaranam; 01 April 2010 at 09:47 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  5. #35

    Re: A Realization : Saguna and Nirguna Brahman

    Namaste

    A million thanks , Atanuji , for taking the effort to put questions and point out things that were logical flaws or contradictory acc. to you, and acc. to Advaita.

    You have unknowingly helped Radha
    This post above was supposed to explain what is the purpose of Radha , that is all. I was going to reply to your qn in the other thread, but keeping it in this thread becs its more relevant here than on a thread titled 'practical advaita', and a part of a more generic post on Radha.

    ** This is not April Fool **

    And million thanks Gramesji, for praying for me

    praNAm
    Jai Shri KRSNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 01 April 2010 at 12:00 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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