Is Islam tolerant?

[Sudarshan]

Too much debate goes on this topic.

I want to ask:

Can I go to an Islamic nation and build a temple of Vishnu there?

Then, every morning at 5 AM, can I setup a loud speaker to sing loudly - "There is no God but Vishnu, and Sri Ramanuja is his messenger" .

Are these accepted in an Islamic state? The answers should help us decide how tolerant Islamic laws are....(inspite of their various pleas and citations from the quran)

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Obviously in most of these Islamic states if not all of them you cannot do what you described. I would consider that intolerant myself because regardless of who is the majority and who is the minority it is hypocritical to allow one group's views blasted into everyone's ears and at the same time silence any other views even if they still somewhat agree. I don't know if there is anything in the Qur'an about this issue but it is obviously an example of religious discrimination even if it isn't sanctioned by the religion itself.

I believe there has to be a balance between freedom and tolerance. In other words, two opposing religions should have equal rights to exist and have people practice them as long as they aren't infringing on each other's rights to practice.

[Sudarshan]

Thank you BYS. I hope we can remain friends...

Muslims always show some evidence that there is no compulsion in religion, but they cant deny that a non-muslim can't practice his religion in a muslim dominated area.

A non muslim is not allowed to build his place of worship, and may have to do it at home only.(if that is allowed)

Distribution of scriptures such as Bhagaad Gita to others in Islamic nations is punishable, while muslims themselves are not subjected to this treatment anywhere else in the world. You can see copies of Quran being sold in shops in India and everywhere, but the same of Bhagavad Gita is not allowed in Islamc nations non muslim cannot speak of his religion in public, and he cannot even say "Allah does not exist" without the risk of getting killed. This is ridiculous religeous discrimination. Islam may not compel people into accepting it by force( I think they use force also), but indirectly, slowly and steadily, everyone will be converted due to secondary treatment.

There are no nations in the world which have a 50-70% percent muslim population and a 30-50% non muslim population, why? There will either be very few muslims( less than 20% who will be forced to accept the majority but they keeep fighting), or there will be overwhelming majority( close to 100%). This is because Islam forces people into submission. It should be clear that if muslims reach a 30-40% majority in India, we are in for a partition or a civil war again - most Hindus have no doubt this.

[Sanjeev]

Namaste

as said above, it can't be another religion in a muslim land if the majority is muslim:

It is true that Islamic law, the Sharia, allows Jews and Christians to practice their religious beliefs in an Islamic state; however, other religions are not accorded the same privilege: while Islamic states can according to the Sharia make "a formal agreement of protection" with Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, "such an agreement may not be effected with those who are idol worshippers," that is, Hindus, Buddhists, and others.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=5502

In fact, the Sharia dictates that such a "protection" agreement between Muslim rulers and Jewish and Christian subjects "is only valid when the subject peoples: follow the rules of Islam .....and pay the non-Muslim poll tax

but in the same time, the saudi arabia has decided that :

All religions other than Islam are heresy and error. Any place designated for worship other than [that of] Islam is a place of heresy and error

http://www.aina.org/news/2006033195801.htm

so, may the muslim law never rule, all the world !!!

[Ablaze]

It should be clear that if muslims reach a 30-40% majority in India, we are in for a partition or a civil war again - most Hindus have no doubt this.

Namaste Sudarshan,

Good to see you posting again.

Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.

I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.

I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.

When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. A Yoda quote comes to mind right now.

[Sudarshan]

Namaste,

Good to see you posting again.

Yeah, I cannot run away. The mod happens to be my friend, though he is strict with his rules.

Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.

Statistically, average Hindu family=3.9, muslim family=5.4. That is what I read somewhere. Current muslim population is around 13% and growing slowly. They will crack the 30% mark in something like 50-100 years.

I dont think a Hindu ever converts to Islam unless by force. Christianity is diferent in this ballgame.

I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.

Both also preach that salvation is "easy". You just need to book some tickets. Rural folk can be easily decived into accepting that easy method. While the elite and learned people in other countries discover that both these religions are just myth, these religions change their focus to the illiterate masses where conversions are easier and no questions asked.

I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.

When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. A Yoda quote comes to mind right now.

Hmm, yes, in the absence of easy ways of verifying things that are not material, you can say anything and get away. This is not possible in India where there are still many divine people who are capable of creating the beleif element in people. Many such Yogis remain silent perhaps they see this declining Dharma as a part of the divine sport, but if needed be they will be able to instill the true faith. God realized saints are not uncommon in this land even today.

Ultimately Adharmic religions are also part of the divine drama - but that does not mean we are not supposed to oppose them as long as the drama is manifest to us.

[Ablaze]

Both also preach that salvation is "easy". You just need to book some tickets. Rural folk can be easily decived into accepting that easy method. While the elite and learned people in other countries discover that both these religions are just myth, these religions change their focus to the illiterate masses where conversions are easier and no questions asked.

Yes. It's not surprising that Christianity is experiencing it's largest growth in Poor African countries. We all know the routine, the missionaries come with food, clothes, and "free-Jesus-tickets to heaven".. In Europe, on the other-hand, Christianity has been on the decline for many decades. For one, people there are educated on Christian history, and know full well the ugliness that orthodox dogma has wreaked in Europe.

Sadly in the United States, fundamentalist Christianity is still booming and they are now even trying to get their beliefs taught in public schools. I get 2 or more missionaries to my door every month. Usually Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. I never even open the door anymore, as none seem interested in any dialogue.. they keep coming back though.

[sm78]

Namaste Sudarshan,

Good to see you posting again.

Are a lot of Indians converting to Islam right now? or is the growth mainly do to Muslim families having more kids than Hindu families? I find Islam's percentage increase in India to be very disconcerting, for all the obvious reasons.

Islam has traditionally not been very successful at conversion without physically bully. So most of Muslim growth is by more rapid breeding guaranteed by India's psuedo secular laws where Muslims can marry 4 women and have little birth control program.

However conversion happens too!! This happens in areas where muslims have become dominant and many poor hindu residents find out that joining the Islamic faith guarantees safety in a country where the majority religious group is being threatened everyday. To see muslim conversion at work, one needs to visit bordering districts of India with Pakisthan and Bangladesh. One such area is the north western frontier of Gujrat~ the famous run-of kuch. Recently the banned SIMI organization had good sucess in coverting some villages in costal tamil nadu. I have read in reports that new converts are being used to plot terror attacks as they are not easily distingishable. It is fair to assume the Islam doesn't believe in the number game like Christians. They work for total subjugation of others and not gradual.

I am always amazed that any Hindu would convert to Christianity or Islam; 2 religions which preach eternal damnation for all their Hindu relatives and friends.

This is not that surprizing. Only a few Hindus these days understand their own religion. They were living like a christian or a muslim in personal life anyway or worse. But there is a difference between mass-behaviour of a group of hindus (however non-hindu they are in private lifestyle and belief) and a group of muslims or christians. It is this mass-behaviour that makes these conversions in a country like India so alarming. If people had been converting to anything else, there would have been little to bother.

I remember reading an early missionary story from Japan (I think it was Japan), that when Christian missionaries first came there, many Japanese started weeping, because they thought all their ancestors must be burning in an eternal hell, since they had never had the opportunity to "accept Jesus as their Saviour". This is the fearful mindset that follows the acceptance of Orthodox Christian (Gnostic Christianity is not like this) and Muslim teaching.

When an Indian converts to Islam, they must think that all their Hindu ancestors are damned and their still living relatives are soon to be damned by Allah, unless they too convert. This is why in Muslim countries they are so adamant about not letting other religions gain a foothold, they believe these religions are from "Satan" to lead souls to an eternal hell. The fear of eternal damnation and "God's wrath" controls the mindset in these nations. I'm sure you know it's fear of God and heavy indoctrination, do to avidya, that has lead to all this anger and intolerance. A Yoda quote comes to mind right now.

The Yoda quote is quite valid.

It is this aspect of these religions that hindu's need to understand and make other awares of. It is quite easy to get carried away with "equality of all religions" and neglect the difference.

It is more prudent to understand the differences first and see if the differences are reconcilable. Only then can we focus on harmony. No question of harmony etc ever arises when we are dealing with other religions (other than fundamentalist christianity and Islam). A society with a healthy mix of hindus, buddhists, pagans, jains, daoists or wiccans or even jews will never have any problem.

I'm convinced that fundamentalist christianity and Islam will never live in harmony with others. Christianity has been slightly bogged down by the modern pluralist western society. But I don't think it has been a permanent victory. And increasing fundamentalist trend in america is a chilling pointer.
"Mordernity" in the west is solely hanging precariously on the "economic-well being" thread. The day economic properity of the west takes a beating, christianity will jump back in, for majority of the west don't have any other option. Hinduism and Buddhism are only a century old and restricted only to few free-thinkers.

I had a document regarding how US funds for NGO's have been fully diverted towards Church activities in 3rd world countries under the bush regime. If anyone is interested, i'll try to locate it.

[Sudarshan]

And increasing fundamentalist trend in america is a chilling pointer.
"Mordernity" in the west is solely hanging precariously on the "economic-well being" thread. The day economic properity of the west takes a beating, christianity will jump back in, for majority of the west don't have any other option.

Islam is on the rise in the US. A few months ago I came across a news where a few teenage muslims were arrested (somewhere in the bay area I think) in connection with getting trained for a future take over of USA. That sounded alarming.

USA is a democracy. If muslim population can really increase they could get themselves elected, and may assume great powers. If this becomes part of a terrorist plot the world is in for something. Just imagine a muslim with a mullah mentality becoming the preseident of USA, with all access to the nuclear arsenal.

In a democracy you cannot prevent it from happening if there is significant muslim population. Muslims will declare theocracy the moment they have gathered sufficient strength, there are only few exceptions to this rule. Religions like Islam that are anti democratic must be really banned in democracies to prevent an upstaging of the democracy itself in future. A religion that does not allow the practice of other religions on its home soil has no rights to flourish outside their homes. All muslims must be pointed the exit doors towards Mecca to restore world peace long term.

[Znanna]

Islam is on the rise in the US. A few months ago I came across a news where a few teenage muslims were arrested (somewhere in the bay area I think) in connection with getting trained for a future take over of USA. That sounded alarming.

USA is a democracy. If muslim population can really increase they could get themselves elected, and may assume great powers. If this becomes part of a terrorist plot the world is in for something. Just imagine a muslim with a mullah mentality becoming the preseident of USA, with all access to the nuclear arsenal.

In a democracy you cannot prevent it from happening if there is significant muslim population. Muslims will declare theocracy the moment they have gathered sufficient strength, there are only few exceptions to this rule. Religions like Islam that are anti democratic must be really banned in democracies to prevent an upstaging of the democracy itself in future. A religion that does not allow the practice of other religions on its home soil has no rights to flourish outside their homes. All muslims must be pointed the exit doors towards Mecca to restore world peace long term.

Unfortunately, there also is a growing contingent of Evangelical Protestants (aka "Christian Fundamentalists") here in the US who express the opinion that the means to avert this potential Muslim theocracy is to return the US to its "Christian roots", I suppose on the notion that a Christian theocracy is better than a Muslim one (cos their God is the right one I suppose).

The huge irony of course, is that they are creating the very evil they wish to avert in doing so.

And, to me, the even larger perversion is that the notion of someone's definition of God is somehow bigger, better, badder than someone else's .. haha. As if definition mattered! God IS. We ARE.

Dwelling on the notions of differences, well, I just don't see how that can ever solve problems, only create more.

/rant


Namaste,
ZN