Is Islam tolerant?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello and Namaste,
with no disrespect to anyone on this post, when Muslim's are shown on TV, it is always associated with violence and little tolerance. This perpetuates the notion of this view of religion as violent. It grooms the every day viewer to form opinions that are not true, yet the �drive by media� shows this day-in and day-out.

Now, my thoughts... all religions ( from religare to tie one back; To whom or what ? to God or Allah, or Vishnu, or Istadeva�s of one belief) are like the leafs of the SAME TREE. The tree is nourished by the same sap. It expresses itself as a leaf, a branch, a flowering bud.

When we tend to discuss this notion of religion, we tend to say �my branch or leaf is the right expression of this sap' . It�s the sap that the sages of enlightened vision put their attention on and care to speak... this is the Truth (satyam) the rishi�s and sages and saints and pundits try to get across.

This is beyond religion, karma, sin, or repenting.

All this is verily Brahman.

[Sudarshan]

Namaste Yajvanji,

Media hype has not been used in this thread.

I have simply asked:

1. Can I go to an Islamic nation and build a temple of Vishnu there?
2. Then, every morning at 5 AM, can I setup a loud speaker to sing loudly - "There is no God but Vishnu, and Sri Ramanuja is his messenger" .

The answers to these questions have nothing to do with media report on Islam. How many muslims will accept to these proposals? Does the koran/hadith support it? This is the main issue. Barring some muslims in India who would have assimilated the secular blood of Hindus, I would not say that Islam respects the practise of non Islamic religions. No public practice of non Islamic religions is allowed under the Shariah Law. A muslim apostate is to be killed under the Islamic law. These are things that most muslims cant deny.

What is happening to the Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh? Why are we getting a never ending stream of Hindu refugees from Bangaldesh? Why there has been too many unnecessary wars between India and Paksitan? Why is a proxy war always going on in Kashmir? Who is the cause of this? Is it some muslims or Islam?

The fact that a non muslim is reduced to a secondary citizen(unable to hold any public or senior office) in an Islamic state cannot be denied even by muslims. Try visiting some major Islamic forums and suggest the equation Vishnu=Allah and Islam~Hinduism? You will probbaly get only some abuses directed at you( as an idolator), and it has been my experience.

No Hindu is using media reports in checking the credibility of Islam. The Islamic history is to well known. Their destroying of Buddhism in Bihar and their massive attempt at wiping out Sanatana Dharma is too well documented in history. It has continued to the present day. Countries with muslims population will have peace only if muslims are too few in number( powerless) or a near full majority( peace has been established by subjugating others).

We dont care what the philosophy of Islam says. Perhaps it has some roots of vedanta philosophy. We are interested only in knowing how far Islam is related to democracy and protects the rights of others. What will happen to India( or even the USA) if the muslims reach a 50% majority? What has history taight us in this regard?

[saidevo]

Namaste Sudarshan,

You have very well explained the crux of the problem. The question of how a muslim should relate to the general public at large, and their resident nation in particular is left to be decided by Islam and its Shariah Law. This is the major flaw that prevents muslims from co-existing with others peacefully.

If muslims choose to continue with their traditional policy of Islam only and nothing else, there could be one logical solution: Will they be happy if all of them are relocated exclusively in West Asia where they are already a majority? They can form one or more countries there and make the entire area a Dar-il-Islam. But then the UN must ensure that they are not allowed residence in any other non-Islamic country, though the Islamic nations may choose to have trade relationships with other nations. With their fast growing population, as you say, any country whose muslim population touches 50% is doomed!

The idea is remotely Utopian, agree, but I think it's better than having the whole world as Dar-il-Islam! Of course, the world will still have the Christianity to deal with, but I think that wouldn't be so much a problem.

[Sudarshan]

In my opinion, Islamic theocracy can be countered only by another theocracy. Muslims living outside the middle east do not get a taste of their own medicine, for eg India. We treat muslims as minorities and extend special privileges not even enjoyed by Hindus - an example is the Haj subsidy. Muslims in India do not beleive that non muslims get second rate treatment elsewhere because they do not experience it and do not know the implications.

People like Dr.Zakir Naik are clever enough to know that, but he is more of the fanatic muslim who wants to the establish the Allah's empire in the world.

In all religions, we have three kinds: a liberal, a moderate and an extremist version.

A Hindu extremist can hardly support his idealogy based on scripture and can never shout Jai Sita Rama over the victims he killed.

Similarly, an extremist Christian can hardly show any proof from the love message of Christ, and his claims may be dismissed. There is no doubts that a true Christian is very close to a true Hindu in his beleifs...However extremist muslim can show sufficient authority for his idealogy, and so can the moderates and the liberals, and honestly
Hindus do not know who among them is the real muslim. If we go by Indian history, there is not a shred of evidence of muslims being peaceful and engaged in massacres and forced conversions. Shariah Law is not democratic and no non muslim will accept its authority.

Most muslims in India are probably Hindu like because of constant mingling for years. Most of them do not even know that their ancestors were Hindus forcibly converted at sword point. The forcible conversions have happened as late as 1942 (Moplah rebellion) and Tippu Sultan is known to have done that. So if muslims can forcibly convert Hindus even in periods when they were a minority ( of course conversions happened in areas where they were local majority), what would be the fate of Hindus if they were a 50% all India majority? Muslims will easily reach these numbers due to their high rate of proliferation.( another 100-200 years)

I dont think Hindus can do much at this point but to watch and monitor, but never get decieved by the false propaganda of Islam being a rellgion of peace. That assumption would be suicidal, and will lead to a partiiton of India in future. If necessary, they have to make India a theocracy. Hindu Thoecracy by very definition is secular and not pseudo secularism we have now. Implement rules that prevent muslim population from growing in majority and allow them to survive at the existing 13%.(which is not a threat)

I am least bothered with Christianity because we are assured that Jesus if he existed had nothing to do with violence. All extremist Christians are fakes automatically and they should be charged like that and driven away if they undertake decietful proselytizing. Hindu Theocracy ensures that no such deciet will be allowed.(bible for bread schemes will be punished under law). If somebody wants to become a christian because he was convinced he could realize God that way, he is a great soul, why should Hindus bother with such
genuine conversions? All Hindus should be distributed a copy of the Sermon on the Mount and they should agrressively oppose all pseudo missionaries.( this approach was adopted by both Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda)

Hindus are not likely to convert to Islam for any reason. The only threat therefore will be the birthrate of muslims. This problem cannot be addressed in a pseudo secular India.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~
"We treat muslims as minorities and extend special privileges not even enjoyed by Hindus - "

Namaste Sudarshan,

I have read your posts and stuggle with your final analysis or your conclusion. Is it they do not respond in kind to the behaviors others afford them??? Or believe thier way is the only way or ___________?
Your point is correct , you did not entertain the thought of the media... I offered it as a point of reference people can relate to.
I am not challeging here, just trying to get your point...

My point I was interested in offering was the only way most people see the Muslim's is as a group and therefore group behaviour in the media, and that clearly suggests a general intolerace which to me is regretable.

That said, like all people, once you get to know their motivations, you may understand their behavoirs, YET I STILL DO NOT approve of the behaviors I see - that is where I am today. I can't understand the level of violence done at the drop of a hat.

[Sudarshan]

have read your posts and stuggle with your final analysis or your conclusion. Is it they do not respond in kind to the behaviors others afford them??? Or

believe thier way is the only way or ___________?

Who cares what they believe in? As I mentioned earlier, you cannot know about muslims until they have enough numbers, AT the moment they are a minority, and hence not a threat. It is also possible that centuries of contact with Hindu culture ( after all most muslims in India were originally Hindus), have rendered them harmless in the long run. We can hope this is true but only future will tell the truth.

That said, like all people, once you get to know their motivations, you may understand their behavoirs, YET I STILL DO NOT approve of the behaviors I see -

that is where I am today. I can't understand the level of violence done at the drop of a hat.

I dont think Hindus are engaging in violence at the drop of a hat. If that were the case, there would be massive muslim immigration into Pakistan or Bangladesh. Hindus have more patience than anything else, and are just trying to understand this weird phenomenon known as terrorism that has infected the world. The whole world is trying to figure out who is responsible for this madness. Even the Pope seems to have figured it out now! And look at Islamic reaction over his statements? Christians and Muslims have been calling Hinduism as wicked and Satanic for a long time now and have we reacted so childishly? Why would a muslim feel upset over such reamarks about his religion, when he himself is claiming to be the only truth without any regard for others?

Let us use "All this is Brahman" with caution. That cant be true in the practical world.

[saidevo]

Islam’s Other Victims: India
By Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 18, 2002

Unlike Germany, which has apologized to its Jewish and Eastern European victims, and Japan, which has at least behaved itself since WWII, and even America, which has gone into paroxysms of guilt over what it did to the infinitely smaller numbers of Red Indians, the Moslem aggressors against India and their successors have not even stopped trying to finish the job they started. To this day, militant Islam sees India as "unfinished business" and it remains high on the agenda of oil-rich Moslem countries such as Saudi Arabia, which are spending millions every year trying to convert Hindus to Islam.

Here is the link for an excellent analysis of the historical track record of Muslims in the name of their religion:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=4649

[saidevo]

Aavarana and Da Vinci code:A Comparison
by N.S. Rajaram

In reading S.L. Bhyrappa’s latest (Kannada) novel Aavarana, Dan Brown’s best selling novel Da Vinci Code springs naturally to mind. Both have as their subject the suppression of true history and the propagation of a myth by powerful interests. In Da Vinci Code, the villain is the Catholic Church and its modern secret and sinister arm the Opus Dei. In Bhyrappa’s novel, the villain is the collective of politically correct historians and ‘intellectuals’ who out a combination of greed and fear have suppressed the truth about Islam and its record in India . While these intellectuals— called dhimmis by the Egypt-born scholar Bat Ye’or—can boast of no Vatican or Opus Dei, they do form a powerful clique enjoying the support of successive governments who find it politically expedient to appease Islam and conceal the truth about its record and teachings. As this phenomenon is by no means limited to India , Bhyrappa’s Aavarana, and the public reaction to it should be of interest far beyond its intended readership.
...

Be as it may, Da Vinci Code may still be read as an entertaining mystery thriller untroubled by its subversive message— some would say its hidden agenda. He leaves untouched the darker aspects of the medieval history of Europe , especially the horrors of the Albigensian Crusade launched by Pope Innocent III that destroyed the brilliant Provencal civilization in what amounted to genocide of the followers of the Albigensian heresy. In place of this real history Dan Brown gives us a romanticized version of the Knights Templars as preservers of the secret and its possibly fictional successor Priory of Sion as the protectors of the Merovingian royal line. So, for all the heartburn it has caused, Da Vinci Code remains entertaining fiction that causes no great anguish.

Bhyrappa’s Aavarana gives the reader no such respite from historical horrors. It narrates the story of a Rajput prince and his wife captured in the siege of Deoghar and turned into slaves in Muslim courts in the time of the Mogul Emperor Aurangazeb (reigned 1658 – 1707). He later accompanies a Mogul officer and witnesses the destruction of the great Vishwanath Temple in Benares . He witnesses also the horrors inflicted by Moguls on the Hindus and leaves a record of it. Aavarana describes these horrors in vivid detail and understated language, leaving little to the imagination. There is no hyperbole to obscure facts, which makes the horror all the more real.

(http://www.haindavakeralam.org/PageM...ID=3067&SKIN=B)

S.L. Bhyrappa’s latest novel, he said, will be translated into English. In Tamil, a small historical work on the atrocities of Muslims was authored by Madan and published by Anada Viketan, the famous Tamil weekly of a long standing.

[bhavanidasa]

one of the best sites on the islamic concept of 'tolerance':

http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_...wn_Words.Islam

The site is unusual because it makes extensive use of a muslim historian called Tabari. He used the work of an earlier historian called , whose work was conveniently lost.
Tabari says that he has left out some of the episodes because they would be too much for the reader to stomach -- but what he does include is enough to dispel the idea that 'islam means peace'.

svasti vo .stu
bhavanidasa

[Gotam]

In India, thousands of Hindu temples were destroyed and replaced by mosques. What happens when Hindus, far from asking the Muslims to put the Temples back themselves, ask to remove just a few mosques and rebuild one or two of these Temples?

In Egypt, a mosque has been built near every Coptic church. The mosque's minaret is always higher than the church's tower, and christian religious services are always disturbed by the muezzin shouting, nowadays with loudspeakers, the Shahada.

Millions of Arab Christians have fled their countries during the past century. Others have converted to Islam to escape discrimination and violence, often sexual violence. Most Jews from Muslim countries have fled to Israel.

A very serious problem is that the terrorism advocated by the Koran and practised from Islam's beginning onwards by prophet Mohammed and his militant followers often makes Islam's opponents almost as fanatical as Muslims themselves. Hindus, Christians and other non-Muslims face the risk of becoming as bad as the evil they fight against if they focus too much on Muslim hate-speach, injustice and terror. Sadly, here in Europe islamic intolerance, often believed to be marginal but in reality a commonplace Muslim attitude, is mainly attacked by political parties that vaguely remind us of nazi and fascist intolerance, and that sometimes have some links with past fascism. If we become intolerant and narrow-minded ourselves, we loose a few of the most precious values we try to defend against Islam. I think India and perhaps America face the same problem as Europe in this respect, and tolerant Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Atheists should unite to find a tolerant but effective remedy.