ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

[keshava]

From the "Six Favorable and Unfavorable Principles" in the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

5.Associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness
There are two kinds of non-devotees; those who are against Krsna's supremacy and those who are absorbed in material sense gratification. One should strictly avoid such association. We should live only in association with Krsna-conscious devotees and always be engaged in Krsna's service in their association.

Whats wrong with associating with devotees and avoiding inimate contact of non devotees. If the aim is Krsna then its helpful to have as much association with like minded persons. Just like if you're aim is to be a good student at uni you try to associate with other good students and avoiding too much intamacy with thoses that are not good students as they can prove distracting?

TA ETE SADHAVAH SADHVI SARVA-SANGA-VIVARJITAH
SANGAS TESV ATHA TE PRARTHYAH SANGA-DOSA-HARA HI TE

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 3.25.24)
O My mother, O virtuous lady, these are the qualities of great devotees who are free from all attachment. You must seek attachment to such holy men, for this counteracts the pernicious effects of material attachment.

HARI BHAKTI VILASA 10/174 from YOGA VASISTHA
One should always associate with saintly persons. Even if they do not narrate or preach, their talking itself is a great instruction.

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 3.23.55, spoken by Devahuti)
Association for sense gratification is certainly the path of bondage. But the
same type of association, performed with a saintly person, leads to the path of liberation, even if performed without knowledge.

From the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

3.Talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters
Those who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness like to read heaps of newspapers, solve riddles, read novels, etc. They are simply wasting their time with useless activities. In this way materialistic people waste valuable time and energy. Old people spend their days with playing cards, fishing, television and speculations about social and political topics. All these activities belong to the prajalpa category, and should be avoided by intelligent people. (by whom they mean ISKCON devotees).

Krsna says the same thing in the gita one should focus on him with single mindedness, with words, body and mind, the more you have distractions the harder it is to be a loving servant of the Lord? Its up to you how much you can do but the principle is advocated by Krsna also in the Gita?

YE VA MAYISE KRTA-SAUHRDARTHA
JANESU DEHAMBHARA-VARTIKESU
GRHESU JAYATMAJA-RATIMATSU
NA PRITI-YUKTA YAVAD-ARTHAS CA LOKE

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 5.5.3)
"Those who are interested in reviving Krsna consciousness and increasing their love of Godhead do not like to do anything that is not related to Krsna. They are not interested in mingling with people who are busy maintaining their bodies, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are not attached to their homes, although they may be householders. Nor are they attached to wives, children, friends or wealth. At the same time, they are not indifferent to the execution of their duties. Such people are interested in collecting only enough money to keep the body and soul together."

From the book A Beginner's Guide to Krsna Consciousness by Bhakti Vikasa Swami:

"Devotess who eat food cooked by persons of unclean habits and impure consciousness become contaminated by the mentality of the cook and share in their sinful karmic reations. As Lord Caitanya said, "When one eats food cooked by a materialistic person, one's mind becomes contaminated. When the mind becomes contaminated, one is unable to think of Krishna properly." (Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Antya-lila 6.278) Therefore, devotees practice taking only krsna-prasada....The best thing is to arrange life so as to only eat krsna-prasada."

Why is this a bad thing - If someone wants to follow strictly they can if they can't they dont have to ?

yagya-sishtasinah santo

muchyante sarva-kilbishai

bhunjate te tv agham papa

ye pacanty atma-karanat

The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin. (Bhagavad-gita 3.13)


There is nothing wrong with these principles if one accepts Krishna as God and the Gita and the scriptures, these pricniples are there as a means of helping one become more of a lover of the Lord however obviously (not obvious to some) that they shouldn't be presented in a condecending way.

[ScottMalaysia]

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

Swami Chidbhavananda translates the part in bold above as Fix your mind on Me.

Firstly, Krishna was talking to Arjuna here. Secondly, becoming Krishna's devotee and worshipping Him can be done without following the strict practices of ISKCON. Indeed, none of ISKCON's strict practices are mentioned in the Bhagavad-Gita. They most likely come from Caitanya-Caritamrita, a non-Vedic scripture. Krishna actually tells Arjuna to do his duty, not give it up and live in a temple chanting Hare Krishna for 2 hours every day.

The principles are not meant for sanysasis they are meant for devotees of Krishna. When Krishna says in the gita man mana bhava mad bhakta, he is taking about all devotees he doesnt say just sanysasis should do this.

Most other Hindus who are devotees of Krishna don't get up early, chant Hare Krishna 1,728 times a day etc. From what I've seen, I don't think even regular Gaudiya Math members do all these things.

Whats wrong with associating with devotees and avoiding inimate contact of non devotees. If the aim is Krsna then its helpful to have as much association with like minded persons. Just like if you're aim is to be a good student at uni you try to associate with other good students and avoiding too much intamacy with thoses that are not good students as they can prove distracting?

Yes, it's good to associate with other devotees of Krishna, just like Christians say that it's good to associate with other Christians. But you can also have good friends who don't share your religious beliefs, and that is fine. The problem is when devotees are told not to associate with non-devotees, they may stop associating with their friends and family. This is a cult-like practice - telling cult members not to associate with non-members. Jehovah's Witnesses (a pseudo-Christian cult) are told that their friends and family trying to get them away from the JW society is actually Satan testing them.

ISKCON maitains a very "us versus them" mentality, referring to non-devotees as "karmis". Morris Yanoff, author of Where is Joey? asked a devotee who a demon was. The devotee responded that a demon is anyone who is not a devotee. This "us versus them" mentality is common to cults.

ISKCON are also very disparaging to followers of other Hindu sects, such as Saivism, calling them "Mayavadis". They will gladly tell Christians that they are worshipping the same God, yet they tell that Saivites that their God is just a demigod and a servant of Krishna.

Krsna says the same thing in the gita one should focus on him with single mindedness, with words, body and mind, the more you have distractions the harder it is to be a loving servant of the Lord? Its up to you how much you can do but the principle is advocated by Krsna also in the Gita?

Most Hindus manage this without following ISKCON's strict practices and restrictions.

(SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 5.5.3)
"Those who are interested in reviving Krsna consciousness and increasing their love of Godhead do not like to do anything that is not related to Krsna. They are not interested in mingling with people who are busy maintaining their bodies, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are not attached to their homes, although they may be householders. Nor are they attached to wives, children, friends or wealth. At the same time, they are not indifferent to the execution of their duties. Such people are interested in collecting only enough money to keep the body and soul together."

Again, most Hindus are not like that.

yagya-sishtasinah santo
muchyante sarva-kilbishai
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat

The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin. (Bhagavad-gita 3.13)

Let's look at another translation of this verse.

The good who eat the remains of Yajna are freed from all sins; but the sinful ones who cook food only for themselves, they verily eat sin.

Commentary by Swami Chidbhavananda

Karma in itself is neither good nor evil. The motif behind it makes it good or evil. A deadly war waged with the object of exterminating the wicked is a virtuous act. A pious prayer to the Almighty for a selfish end may not be a sin ; but it is not so meritorious as a prayer offered for common weal. An aotion becomes sacred to the extent the ego gets obliterated. All thought, word and deed require to be directed to the glory of the Lord and the good of the world.

Partaking of food is an obligatory work. Cooking the daily food has therefore to go on as a matter of course. But one ought to think of and provide for the hungry and the needy as much as for oneself. He who is exclusive and self-centred in the procurement of food and in the partaking of it, is a sinful man. What he eats is nothing but sin. The bondage of sin he creates for himself is boundless.

A day passed bereft of the performance of Yajna is a day gone to waste. Such is the injunction enjoined in the scriptures. An ideal family man is he who engages himself daily in the five great Yajnas. All the five of them form his nitya karma—obligatory work.

First and foremost among them is Deva Yajnathe worship of God. The day invariably begins with it. This has to be gone through devoutly and to the best of one's knowledge. It may be augmented with rituals according to traditions and individual tastes.

The second in order is Rishi Yajna — the adoration of the Enlightened. The great ones who have had God-realization have not allowed their rare experiences to go into oblivion. Out of compassion for the ignorant humanity they have passed them on to posterity in the form of scriptures and sacred books. A devoted study, assimilation and practice of the principles contained in them constitute this Yajna. Expounding the holy scriptures with a devotional attitude to the ardent enquirers and devotees is also an aspect of this Yajna.

Pitru Yajna comes third in rank. It has its two aspects. The living parents have to be revered and devotedly served every day. He who pleases not his parents cannot please anybody here or hereafter. This is the first part of this Yajna. Thinking daily holy and auspicious thoughts for the welfare of the departed ancestors is its second part.

Fourthly comes Nara Yajna—the devoted service rendered to mankind. Individuals are the limbs of the community. At all levels and in all fields the interest of the limb should be subordinated to that of the main body. Any position reverse to this is definitely harmful. That man who places the public interest above the personal and acts accordingly is doing Nara Yajna. This age is in need of emphasis on this Yajna.

Bhuta Yajna or a reverent relationship with all the living beings completes the list. Since all creatures have come from God, the Cosmic Life, they have to be treated with due regard. The domestic animals and birds require to be tended on a par with the human. The cow-mother — Gomata is literally worshipped in this great land. Bhuta Yajna does not, however, preclude stern steps being taken against terrific and venomous creatures that prove a menace to human life.

Through the meticulous practice of these five great sacrifices—Pancha maha yajna the life of man on earth becomes prosperous and auspicious. Again, all the activities in life can be converted into Yajna by the knowing ones.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?
but iskcon ?

ISKCON got you guys on the map!

The western world is fill with YOGA terminology thanks to the HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT.

The work done by ISKCON throughout the world will never be surpassed by anyother efforts. It's been too late for that.

The rest of the world must face THEIR DIRTY LAUNDRY, now.
That will make book disytribution a little easier.

The status quo seen in ISKCON past was NO SURPRISE to the educated vedantist.
But that is what it took to plant the seed first before others came along with their own mass destinies.


BTW, Donate your MONEY to a member of the ISKCON diasopra; make good karma.

[Mohini Shakti Devi]

Scott,
You are quoting, "Pepe the devotee from the pueblo". You are quoting, 3rd hand confidential wellwishers that you have a specific reason to say "I can't handle the diciplines so it is wrong to suggest that it is best to do so".

You are systematically enumerating esoteric Hindu doctrine as if you are a spokesman.

But Satay will not delete your posts.

Scott, in your 24 years of life you have slept approx 8 years+ (1/3rd) of it & 8 years (1/3rd) where is the school system & 8 years (1/3rd) of your freetime spent on diverse activities. Now you are a teacher of other's field of expertise?

Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava. You are berating the WORKS of multitudes of ISKCON Vaishnavas.

You are blazing your own path, where you should be serving with all your mind, body & spirit the Vaishnavas.

[satay]

namaskar,

No, I will not delete his posts as I don't think he is breaking any rules. Scott didn't open this can of worms. So we can't blame him for the mess.

Scott,
You are quoting, "Pepe the devotee from the pueblo". You are quoting, 3rd hand confidential wellwishers that you have a specific reason to say "I can't handle the diciplines so it is wrong to suggest that it is best to do so".

You are systematically enumerating esoteric Hindu doctrine as if you are a spokesman.

But Satay will not delete your posts.

[ScottMalaysia]

Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava.

This is an ecumenical Hindu forum, not a Gaudiya forum. Many members may be offended by these words.

You are blazing your own path, where you should be serving with all your mind, body & spirit the Vaishnavas.

But I am a Saivite. My personal devotion is given to Durga Ma. I will pray to Krishna when I go to the temple, though, and Lord Rama.

[grames]

Dear Scott,

What is that your are talking here about? Your messages here give the glimpse of your hatred or discomft with ISKCON practices though you are very gladly equating the 'not so iskcon" practices as general Hindu one. Let me involve with a response here.

Firstly, Krishna was talking to Arjuna here. Secondly, becoming Krishna's devotee and worshiping Him can be done without following the strict practices of ISKCON.

You ought to explain HOW? and also you have to lay down such How as the 'common' general practices of "ALL" the "so called Hindus" you are referring to. Can you do that? If you can, please i ll be delighted to learn one such easy process of following Bhakthi Yoga.

Krishna actually tells Arjuna to do his duty, not give it up and live in a temple chanting Hare Krishna for 2 hours every day.

Do you know the actual meaning of "worship"?? Please explain what it is with respect to Lord Krishna. Secondly, what works for Arjuna is not same for everyone. I do not think , devotee Scott will take up Bow and arrows and find his friends and relatives in a battlefield and kill everyone to establish his Dharma.

Most other Hindus who are devotees of Krishna don't get up early, chant Hare Krishna 1,728 times a day etc. From what I've seen, I don't think even regular Gaudiya Math members do all these things.

Devotee does not mean someone who is sympathizing with Lord Krishna but someone who accepted a process called Bhakthi "Yoga" to realize his relationship with Lord and also the pure bliss that comes out of this relationship. It is a process and not a mere sentimental approach to the ultimate Divinity where you just go to a temple when you have free time and nothing else to do and dress up in Dhotti etc. with tilak on ur forehead. Its a process and it has rules and it has strict regulations prescribed for progress. It is not ISKCON practice alone and every "dharmic" people who follow the path of Bhakthi Yoga do have all such rules and regulations in different forms. Unlike what you seem to believe, most Hindus who strictly follow spiritual path be it Bhakthi or others, do get up early and do a lot more activities in their path. ( Do not equate rare rshis with common man and even those Rshis do not know what is morning and when is night). If you happen to learn from people who are not really in any spritual path but give you a tailor made version of practice to suite you, believe me, YOU ARE VERY MUCH LOST!

Yes, it's good to associate with other devotees of Krishna, just like Christians say that it's good to associate with other Christians.

For someone who wants to make the progress in Bhakthi Yoga, SatSang of devotees is the much required discipline as it is the best catalyst. For such initiated devotees there are no other good friends and "good" in your opinion is relative and for a devotee who dedicates his life for the progress in Bhakthi Yoga associating with other devotees are the only Good. You do not have to accept this but it is how a Bhakthi Yogi can be focused on his path rather be distracted with so called "Good" friends. Your aversion to Christianity does not make Christianity wrong and for your info, it is not just ISKCON but majority of the Human being who follow SD do not hate Christianity but only have discomfort in some of their ways of thrusting their practices on others. ISKCON is not preaching "WE vs Others" but for the beginners and intermediate Bhakthi Yogi's it is necessary to accumulate and achieve something fruitful in the path or in simple words steady love,prema for Lord at all time and in all circumstances instead of associating with others which is futile and waste of time wrt to the goal of their initiation. Someone who know nothing but want to talk about Bhakthi Yoga, their message will be exactly like yours with out any true information or benefits of the path Bhakthi. Hope you do not take this as personal offense but i am pointing out the why rules and regulations are there.

ISKCON are also very disparaging to followers of other Hindu sects, such as Saivism, calling them "Mayavadis".

In this forum it is a big issue to be addressed as "MayaVaadi" and not sure why people take it as so offensive when their philosophy in totality is about the "Maya" Vaada. Reducing/negating the Maya to attain the status of Brahman is the core of this philosophy and it is not derigotary at all unless u assume it like that. Its just a name for the philosophy.

Most Hindus manage this without following ISKCON's strict practices and restrictions.

Most = How many?? Isin't limited to your knowing? Also what makes you think ISKCON is making a general rule to all Hindus? Its soley for ISKCON followers.

You said you are following Saivaism. Let me bring you few verses from the Holy ThiruMular for your reference.

224.
அந்தணர் ஆவோர் அறுதொழில் பூண்டுளோர்
செந்தழல் ஓம்பிமுப் போதும் நியமஞ்செய்
தந்தவ நற்கரு மத்துநின்று ஆங்கிட்டுச்
சந்தியும் ஓதிச் சடங்கறுப் போர்களே. 1

225.
வேதாந்தங் கேட்க விருப்பொடு முப்பதப்
போதாந்த மான பிரணவத் துள்புக்கு
நாதந்த வேதாந்த போதாந்த நாதனை
ஈதாந்தம் எனாதுகண்டு இன்புறு வோர்க்களே. 2

226.
காயத் திரியே கருதுசா வித்திரி
ஆய்தற்கு உவப்பர் மந்திரம் ஆங்கு உன்னி
நேயத் தேரேறி நினைவுற்று நேயத்தாய்
மாயத்துள் தோயா மறையோர்கள் தாமே. 3

227.
பெருநெறி யான பிரணவம் ஓர்ந்து
குருநெறி யாலுரை கூடிநால் வேதத்
திருநெறி யான கிரியை யிருந்து
சொரூபமது ஆனோர் துகளில்பார்ப் பாரே. 4

228.
சத்திய மும்தவம் தானவன் ஆதலும்
எய்த்தரும் இந்தியம் ஈட்டியே வாட்டலும்
ஒத்த உயிர்கள் உண்டா யுணர்வுற்று
பெத்தம் அறுத்தலும் ஆகும் பிரமமே. 5

229.
வேதாந்தங் கேட்க விரும்பிய வேதியர்
வேதாந்தங் கேட்டுந்தம் வேட்கை ஒழிந்திலர்
வேதாந்த மாவது வேட்கை ஒழிந்திடம்
வேதாந்தங் கேட்டவர் வேட்கை விட்டாரே. 6

230.
நூலும் சிகையும் நுவலிற் பிரமமோ
நூலது கார்ப்பாசம் நுண்சிகை கேசமாம்
நூலது வேதாந்தம் நுண்சிகை ஞானமாம்
நூலுடை அந்தணர் காணும் நுவலிலே. 7

231.
சத்தியம் இன்றித் தனிஞானம் தானின்றி
ஒத்த விடயம்விட் டோ டும் உணர்வின்றிப்
பத்தியும் இன்றிப் பரன் உண்மை யின்றிப்
பித்தேறும் மூடர் பிராமணர் தாமன்றே. 8

232.
திருநெறி யாகிய சித்தசித் தின்றிக்
குருநெறி யாலே குருபதம் சேர்ந்து
கரும நியமாதி கைவிட்டுக் காணும்
துரிய சமாதியாந் தூய்மறை யோர்க்கே. 9

233.
மறையோர் அவரே மறையவர் ஆனால்
மறையோர்தம் வேதாந்த வாய்மையினால் தூய்மை
குறையோர்தன் மற்றுள்ள கோலா கலமென்று
அறிவோர் மறைதொ஢ந்து அந்தண ராமே. 10

234.
அந்தண்மை பூண்ட அருமறை அந்தத்துச்
சிந்தைசெய் அந்தணர் சேரும் செழும்புவி
நந்துதல் இல்லை நரபதி நன்றாகும்
அந்தியும் சந்தியும் ஆகுதி பண்ணுமே. 11

235.
வேதாந்த ஞானம் விளங்க விதியிலோர்
நாதாந்த போதம் நணுகிய போக்கது
போதாந்த மாம்பரன் பாற்புகப் புக்கதால்
நாதாந்த முத்தியும் சித்தியும் நண்ணுமே. 12

236.
ஒன்றும் இரண்டும் ஒருங்கிய காலத்து
நன்றும் இருந்தும் நலம்பல பேசினும்
வென்று விளங்கும் விகிர்தனை நாடுவர்
சென்று வணங்குந் திருவுடை யோரே. 13

237.
தானே விடும்பற்று இரண்டும் தரித்திட
நானே விடப்படும் ஏதொன்றை நாடாது
பூமேவு நான்முகன் புண்ணிய போகனாய்
ஓமேவும் ஓர்ஆ குதிஅவி உண்ணவே.

Please get a translation for the above verses and you will realize the code of conduct for who is a Brahmana. So, does shaivaism is also not Hindu but a cult because they also have code of conduct for Brahmana, Kshatriya etc. On the other hand, do you think there should be definite guidelines, rules and regulations for progressing and being steady in their spritual paths and if they have such rules and regulations means they are the BEST? Just leave it to your thoughts... unbiased.!

[bhaktajan]

I nominate Grames for a Nobel Peace Prise.

[bhaktajan]

In my useless and fallen and foolish Opinion:
Cult [modern definition] = followers of a charasmatic (living) person.

- - - - - - - - -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.[50]
- - - --- - - - ---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult

an instance of great veneration of a person. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person

- - - - - - - - -
http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...lity?qsrc=2446

cult of personality:

a cult promoting adulation of a living national leader or public figure ---ie. as one encouraged by Stalin to extend his power.

[bhaktajan]

"us versus them" mentality is common to United Nations Resolution Commitees and similar Parlimentary enterprises.

Scott,
Bhaktajan wrote: "Shiva is the Chief Vaishnava."
This is a fact. No Vaishnav takes offense to this. It is the Opinion of Vedavyasa's Vedas.

This is an ecumenical Hindu forum, not a Gaudiya forum.
The thread is: "Forum for discussion of Krishna Consciousness: Hare Krishna!" [read the text yourself at the top of the page]

Many members may be offended by these words.
[BUT WHY SHOULD I CARE IF ANY ONE IS ANNOYED? You mean to say many readers will disagree and thus say, "I AM HEREBY OFFENDED, I MUST HAVE REDRESS"---???]