How do we counter this argument?

[smaranam]

But, I will take just one example, to illustrate the limitation. Krishna is 'All Attractive" and devotees of that form see All Attractiveness in the two handed tribhangmurari. Is it universal? No. No other culture will universally take that image as "All Attractive". Whereas, the Dark, Shushupti, Pragnya Ghana, Sarvesvara --- the Sleep, is dear to all without a single exception. Shiva- the auspicious is slightly more difficult. Only the full, Advaita is Auspicious to All -- else conflicting interest will kill the auspiciousness. Thus onlt the Advaita Shivo Atman is Auspicious. And one will immediately see that Krishna is Shiva and Shiva is Krishna.

But is the Pragnya Ghana -- the revealed Self describable with Mind? No. Is the revealer, the Self describable with Mind. No.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste Atanuji

Wonderful summation. I agree completely with all you have said, and that is what KRSNa has been saying in the Geeta, that He is the eternally (sadA) all-auspicious Shiva , Advaita Shivo Atman , the very Universal SELF which is why He is present everywhere.

Just one point - i know that isn't what *you* are saying, but just so other readers will not read anything less in it -

KRSNa is "all attractive" only and only to His devotees, that's correct , not to all cultures, not even to all in the native culture that was His Leela ground.

However, not just because of His form and Tribhang - but because He is BhagavAn, the repository of Shuddha sAttvic guNas , with 6 oppulences :
1. beauty - saundarya
2. wealth - Shri
3. fame
4. strength
5. knowledge
6. renunciation - vairAgya despite the 5 oppulences above....

not to mention His mAdhurya pervading all 64 qualities and the sweetness in His Words in the 3 Geetas (Bhagavad, Uttar/Anugita, Uddhav) and elsewhere throughout His Leela on earth.

So, for some, that Lotus-eyed TribhangMurAri can be initial the doorway to the Infinite that He really is (which is non-different from Shiva).
It is just that the devotees want to stay in duality as of the present at least, because they want to see feel and sense this Infinite by being another entity, as much as they can for as long as they can.

As you said, eventually its eko AtmA, eko Brahman, eko Satya.

Advaita.

Aum Namah Shivaya
Jai Sri KRSNa

[atanu]

Namaste Atanuji
--
Just one point - i know that isn't what *you* are saying, but just so other readers will not read anything less in it -

KRSNa is "all attractive" only and only to His devotees, that's correct , not to all cultures, not even to all in the native culture that was His Leela ground.

Aum Namah Shivaya
Jai Sri KRSNa

Namaste Smaranam

That is the point of Saguna and Nirguna and also about selective cognition. Shushupti is not non-attractive to anyone-- though very few of general public know it consciously and very few devotees of the form Tribhangamurari may intuit that Shushupti Sarvesvara and Tribhangamurari Sarvesvara may be the same? I am not saying that they are same. I am asking why they should not be?

To paraphrase, Sarvasvara Rudra is conceived in some part of consciousness. Sarvesvara Tribahngamurari is conceived in some other. But Consciousness is common and contstant and its full is the shushupti, which every one adores without exception.

Om Namah

[saidevo]

Here is an informative discussion on Advaita and Shankara right inside a message board in the Website ramanuja.org:

Classic Advaita Arguments
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/ar...ll94/0013.html