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Thread: Does killing a body damage the soul?

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    Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Namaste,

    Here's the background:
    One of my best friends who is a devout Roman Catholic is currently in a spiritual crisis. He is doubting Catholicism, and is fed up with priests telling him what to do and everything being a sin. He has had these types of experiences in the past. About a year ago he almost converted to Islam. He converted to Catholicism a few years ago and was a non-practicing Protestant as well as a pagan before converting. He has since said that he will either be a Catholic or a pagan.

    He started talking to me about reincarnation and I explained to him how it makes a lot of sense that we have many lives and many chances to be united with God, not just one life like in Christianity. We also talked about the numerous studies of people, often small children, who remember their past lives. He was fascinated and deeply interested in that. We also talked about souls, and how every living thing has a soul. He said how that makes sense and that's what believed before he converted to Catholicism.

    I also tried to discredit Christianity to him. He knows that I respect the core teachings of Christianity and the teachings of Christ, but I also have problems with Christianity. I pointed out to him contradictions in the Bible as well as some stark similarities between Hinduism and Christianity, especially Krishna and Christ. He seemed pretty interested in that, but he pointed the conversation back toward reincarnation and souls and then we came to the topic of this post


    Here's the topic: I was explaining to him how reincarnation makes sense to me and how every living thing has a soul by saying how us humans are animals. We are superior and more intelligent than the rest, but ultimately we are still animals and we are classified as animals. We live and have souls just as every other animal lives and has a soul. Therefore, we should respect all life and not kill animals. He said how he agreed that all animals have souls, but that we are allowed to kill them in order to survive. (We had a heated discussion several months ago over vegetarianism and how the human body is not designed to eat meat, which he nor I wanted to get into again) He asked me why killing animals is wrong if the animal's soul will just move on. I said that killing animals damages the animal's soul as well as your own for ending its life prematurely. He asked me if I believe a soul can be damaged by something physical. I wasn't sure what to say so I just said that the act of killing can damage a soul and a soul can be damaged but not destroyed. I asked him what he thinks happens to souls when a human kills an animal. He said how the souls would just move on. I said how I don't believe that the soul is perfect and it can't be damaged. I said it definitely could be damaged, just not destroyed. He said that since it's spirit, it can't be damaged by something physical but it could be damaged by something spiritual. I asked him what is the argument against murder then? He said how humans kill animals in order to eat and survive, but man does not kill man in order to eat him and survive, therefore the murderer's soul would be damaged, but not the victim's. (Remember, we didn't want to get back into the whole conversation about how humans aren't supposed to eat meat) I pointed out to him how he therefore believes that the soul can be damaged by something physical (murder), and he said the soul would be damaged by the spiritual aspect of it and not the physical action itself.

    So, the question is: When somebody murders another person, is the victim's soul damaged? We both agreed that the murderer's soul would be damaged, but what about the victim? I thought that the victim's soul would be damaged as well and the soul would move down. The murderer's soul would be damaged even more. That's why killing is such a bad thing, because it negatively affects all that are involved. He seemed to think that the victim's soul would just "move on" presumably to a higher form.

    I know that there are many viewpoints in Hinduism and I will probably get different answers to the question, but I just want to know what you all think. Also, please pray for my friend that he may find spiritual comfort, wherever that may lay.

    Hare Krishna

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    The answer to your question is found in the Bhagavad-Gita.

    Know that to be verily indestructible by which all this is pervaded [the soul]. None can effect the destruction of the Immutable. (Bhagavad-Gita 2:17)

    The Atman [soul] is neither born nor does It die. Coming into being and ceasing to be do not take place in It. Unborn, eternal, constant and ancient, It is not killed when the body is slain. (2:20)

    Weapons do not cleave the Atman, fire burns It not, water wets It not, wind dries It not. (2:23)

    From these verses it is clear that the soul is not material and cannot be harmed or damaged by anything material. However, I'm not sure if negative karma is created for the soul being killed. I read somewhere that if you kill yourself, your soul will remain on earth as a ghost for as long as you would have naturally lived.

    For arguments against meat-eating, see Section 6 of What is Hinduism? from the Himalayan Academy.

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

    You certainly dug yourself into an interesting debate there. Your friend is clearly on the path, as he is wondering, which is a first step, I would think.

    From my particular POV, the murdered soul would not accrue any more karma, and the action was because of previous karmas.

    Having said that, the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was. Rebirth or rather, the soul's ability to choose another body may be hampered if it was particularly violent. When we cross over at death, the idea would be to have a clear consciousness. In a couple of cases, this doesn't happen. One is violent death, and the other is a very confused state of mind, such as that from extreme alcoholism. In this case a soul may hover about and be so confused as to not recognise a suitable body so claim a dog's body for example. I personally don't believe in souls evolving upward through bodies. I believe in different types of souls, though, just as there are different types of devas, or extraterrestrial beings for that matter.

    But that is kind of off topic. The net result beyond linear time would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path. That does not mean I'm going for a walk on the freeway, or I am suggesting you do.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    namaskar,
    As far as I know, soul cannot be 'damaged' or 'destroyed' or 'spoiled'. However, somehow the vasanas from previous births get carried forward to the next birth. I believe the vasanas carry themselves like some sort of 'imprints' like the footprints in the sand...

    So to kill a body will not damage the soul but will carry the karmic debt and vasana forward with the killer in his next birth.

    I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

    Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...
    satay

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.
    There was a scientific study by stevenson that supports your contention:

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

    Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...
    Vannakkam Satay: This makes total sense to me. (Also because of personal experience.) The First nations peoples also looked at birthmarks. A certain birthmark might mean how the person died in their last life. We also had a personal experience with this and one of my children.)

    Now this is way off topic... But here's a question... do you or any of your relatives watch Hockey Night in Canada .. Punjabi version?

    For othesr.. the multiculturalism is so deep in this country that the great Canadian sport called Ice hockey (Field hockey on ice with skates..using a flat rubber thing called a puck instead of a ball.. for the Indians here) is broadcast nationally on Punjabi TV. complete with announcers and all. So our National past time has 3 groups of announcers.. English, French, and Punjabi. I think its great.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    From my particular POV, the murdered soul would not accrue any more karma, and the action was because of previous karmas.

    Having said that, the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was. Rebirth or rather, the soul's ability to choose another body may be hampered if it was particularly violent. When we cross over at death, the idea would be to have a clear consciousness. In a couple of cases, this doesn't happen. One is violent death, and the other is a very confused state of mind, such as that from extreme alcoholism. In this case a soul may hover about and be so confused as to not recognise a suitable body so claim a dog's body for example.

    The net result beyond linear time would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path.
    Namaste Eastern Mind,

    When you say "the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was", are you referring to the murdered soul? The murder would hamper the clear consciousness that is ideal at the end of life, so wouldn't be a way of damaging the soul?

    It seems then that a murder would indeed harm a soul, but then you say that the net result would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path? Would the murder be "helpful on the path" because it is working out bad karma? But then it still hampers the path since there is no clear consciousness at the end of life?

  8. #8

    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaskar,
    As far as I know, soul cannot be 'damaged' or 'destroyed' or 'spoiled'. However, somehow the vasanas from previous births get carried forward to the next birth. I believe the vasanas carry themselves like some sort of 'imprints' like the footprints in the sand...

    So to kill a body will not damage the soul but will carry the karmic debt and vasana forward with the killer in his next birth.

    I also believe (through personal experience) that not only karmic debt but actual disease like lung disease, diabetes etc. get carried forward in next life as well as karmic impressions and vasanas.

    Perhaps I am not making sense here so I will stop here...
    Namaste satay,

    That is an excellent point. I guess it wouldn't be right to say that a soul gets damaged, but rather it accumulates bad karma. Wrong actions will not damage or harm the soul, but instead it gets "karmic debt" for the soul, right?

    Also, I realize that the killer's soul will have to pay off karmic debt for the murder, but what about the victim's soul? Will the victim's soul be harmed in any way, in the sense that it would have to pay off karmic debt as well?

    That is also very interesting that diseases get carried forward to the next life. Would the diseases keep on getting carried over until all the karmic debt is payed off? That actually makes a lot of sense.

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    Namaste Eastern Mind,

    When you say "the incident may carry some stuff into the next life, depending on how violent the murder was", are you referring to the murdered soul? The murder would hamper the clear consciousness that is ideal at the end of life, so wouldn't be a way of damaging the soul?

    It seems then that a murder would indeed harm a soul, but then you say that the net result would be that getting murdered would be helpful on the path? Would the murder be "helpful on the path" because it is working out bad karma? But then it still hampers the path since there is no clear consciousness at the end of life?
    Vannakkam Ramakrishna: From the mountaintop perspective there is no good or bad, harm etc. By carrying stuff, I mean fears or signs, more like Satay's example of diseases. It may be harmful to the physical body in the next birth, but who is to say if it is harmful to the soul? For example, I know of a person who was a lineman in his last life. This person carries two irrational fears (more than the average person) into this life: one is of the fear of height, and another is the fear of electricity. But I don't see how either may be harmful to the soul.

    By 'helpful on the path' yes, I did mean it was a karmic release. We have discussed karma in detail here on HDF, and at least for me the conclusion was that it's fairly complicated.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Does killing a body damage the soul?

    namaskar,

    Well, if we read the Gita we find that it clearly states that the soul or atma doesn't get damaged or even affected. Or at least that's my understanding. Others feel free to correct me.

    The karmic debt or impressions or vasanas travel with the soul somehow. Not sure how though. I think it has something to do with citta and mind stuff. It carries the impressions from past lives. I read a paper on this once but I can't find it now. It was written by an advaitin professor. It explained beautifully the basic process.

    I don't know what happens to the victim's soul. I suppose nothing. But what happens to the impressions in citta or mind stuff of the victim? I don't know. I suppose it carries some impressions there for sure or removes some previous ones due to karma. Not sure... It's a mystery.

    Regarding, disease and in fact what Eastern said about body marks, it is true. I have personal experience with this. I truly believe that body marks and diseases and sometimes the seed of disease gets carried forward from ones previous birth. Not only that, I also think that our favourite tastes and interests travel forward with us too. For example, in my previous life if I liked let's say a certain dish or food very much, the vasana for that food traveled with me to this life. Again this is all based on personal experience and I have no way to prove any of it. Nor do I care if someone agrees with me or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    Namaste satay,

    That is an excellent point. I guess it wouldn't be right to say that a soul gets damaged, but rather it accumulates bad karma. Wrong actions will not damage or harm the soul, but instead it gets "karmic debt" for the soul, right?

    Also, I realize that the killer's soul will have to pay off karmic debt for the murder, but what about the victim's soul? Will the victim's soul be harmed in any way, in the sense that it would have to pay off karmic debt as well?

    That is also very interesting that diseases get carried forward to the next life. Would the diseases keep on getting carried over until all the karmic debt is payed off? That actually makes a lot of sense.
    satay

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