Thatthvamasi(tatvamasi) and sankara charya vedanta

[proudhindu]

Keval advaitha interpretation of tatvamasi is that everything is Brahman.


Tatvamasi appears in Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7, in the dialogue between Uddalaka and his son Svetaketu.


If the Advaitan(kevala) interpretation that everybody is Brahman is valid then Uddalaka should have stopped there and then itself.

Who is teaching and who is being taught ?.

Is the Brahman(Uddalaka) teaching Brahman(svetaketu)?.

And why would brahman(svetaketu) listen to Brahman(Uddalaka)?.

More later.

[smaranam]

praNAm ProudHindu

I shall look forward to the more later you have said.

The antaryAmi does not cease to amaze me. Yesterday I was thinking of exactly this point - the famous qn : "the teacher and taught - why bother ?"
Which needs to be addressed in Saidevoji's advaita thread to answer the professor - (which is probably resolved by now).

And here I find your thread.

So if I may share what I was thinking for you to shed more light on it ?

The fingers are bleeding, the toes are sprained, the bones are fractured, kind Guru is the heart - rightly so, since he represents Ishvar/Brahman. Who heals the fractured bones, cut fingers , etc. and this we call preaching or teaching between Guru and disciple , or removal of ignorance.

But there is more ... even while the bones are fractured, the Adi Purusha functions, walks , talks, life goes on.

This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as [bad] karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Please let me know if there is a flaw in this ?

Thank You.

[proudhindu]

Pranam Smaram

praNAm ProudHindu

So if I may share what I was thinking for you to shed more light on it ?

I am all ears(Eyes, actually)

The fingers are bleeding, the toes are sprained, the bones are fractured, kind Guru is the heart - rightly so, since he represents Ishvar/Brahman. Who heals the fractured bones, cut fingers , etc. and this we call preaching or teaching between Guru and disciple , or removal of ignorance.

But there is more ... even while the bones are fractured, the Adi Purusha functions, walks , talks, life goes on.

That is a good one.

This explains Raman Maharshi for instance -

Hmm,Let us see.

"There is no such thing as [bad] karma.

Is that so?.That is quite mind boggling.If that is true may be i should think about that offer of my beautiful neighbor.

There is nothing to be done.

Sure, nothing to be done; especially when you have an army of
servants/disciples cooking, washing and doing chores for you.

When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Yes, i sometimes laughed at myself for trying to meet my deadlines and silly stuff like taking my mother to hospital and worrying abt her health etc etc.

Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

[smaranam]

praNAm

I would like to resolve this by teaming up with you and learning in the process.

I wrote this elsewhere regarding Raman Maharshi's words :

This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as [bad] karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

We notice he says "When you wake up" implying "when the injuries are healed" i.e. "when the ignorance is removed" (By the heart-like-Guru-Dev). [/B]

Brahman instructs Brahman, Brahman listens to Brahman ?

So when the bones/injuries (jiva-ignorance) are healed is most important I think.

Sure, nothing to be done; especially when you have an army of
servants/disciples cooking, washing and doing chores for you.

The fingers automatically submit, comply and co-operate. They do not have their own whim , especially while on the path of shedding ignorance. When the stomach is hungry, fingers don't go on strike.

Yes i sometimes laughed at myself for trying to meet my deadlines and silly stuff like taking my mother to hospital and worrying abt her health etc etc.

Taking mother to the hospital is part of the healing and sva-dharma, a.k.a. akarma. Brahman-finger takes Brahman-hand to the Hospital. The roles are reversed now. At first "she-Brahman" led "you-Brahman" by the finger.

Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

No, he was proud of them , or pleased with them, as they are not the doers.
Again , Guru-seva = sva-dharma = akarma (inaction that Krshna mentions inthe Gita) .

Does not mean it (akarma) is not happening, just that once ignorance is shed, i-the-jiva am not the doer. I do not feel the burden of action. Prakrti is the appearant doer. I am ultimately Brahman.

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Smaranam,

Let us do it slowly.

So when the bones/injuries (jiva-ignorance) are healed is most important I think.

Sure, that is why we have scriptures and Gurus(including our parents) to remove our ignorance.

How this is relevant to the discussion at hand?.

As per Kevala advaita Jiva is Brahman.So, the question i am asking who is removing whose ignorance?.

to my post

Perhaps Ramana maharishi was laughing at his disciples who were doing some real chores for him in this unreal(mithya) world.

You wrote

No, he was proud of them , or pleased with them, as they are not the doers.

Proud of them?.For what?.For serving him?.For Brahman serving brahman?.

Shouldn't the disciples be focusing on their Self to realize the (Advaitan) self instead of doing chores for Ramana maharishi?.

they are not the doers

So, why not tell them(the disciples) to go mind their Self instead of Doing tasks for himself?.

For a change why not Ramana maharishi do the chores himself and prove that He(Ramana maharshi) is not the doer.To prove that the bones and tendons that get injured are due to ignorance and that the pain he experience is Plain Unreal.

[proudhindu]

Pranaam smaranam,

did ramana maharshi really say this

This explains Raman Maharshi for instance - "There is no such thing as [bad] karma. There is nothing to be done. When you wake up you will laugh at all your struggles"

Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?.

If there is no Good karma or Bad karma then there is no basis for reincarnation.

[grames]

For Brahman serving brahman?.

Two Brahmans??? or just one Brahman?

[kd gupta]

Two Brahmans??? or just one Brahman?
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No , single Brahman with two hands , serving with one and eating with other , similarly as single Brahman singing bhajan with mouth and hearing with ears .
Eko Brahma dwatiyo nasti....easy funda to understand .

[smaranam]

>>> It is the mercy of the heart-Guru to allow the bone/finger-disciple to serve him. This golden opportunity is in itself the process of removal of ignorance in the bone-disciple that wrongly thinks "i am the doer", and has durguna (bad qualities) like pride, arrogance attached to him/her.
Serving the heart-Guru brings servitude and selflessness, a virtue, which in turn dislocates the link of 'I' with the body. nAham deham.

>>> If the Maharshi-heart lived in his own cave, and did his own chores, the bone-disciples will not get healed. Mercy of the guru.

>>> Raman Maharshi :

http://www.atmapress.com/Download/PD..._Teachings.pdf
"..... A day will dawn when you will laugh at all your efforts. What is there to realize? The real is always as it is. You have realized the unreal, in other words, you regard the unreal as that which is real. Give up this attitude and you will attain wisdom. There is nothing new nor anything you do not already have which needs to be gained...."

>>>However, "when you wake up you will laugh" is in the context of a self realized state.
It applies only and only to the Jivanmukta.
After he/she/IT wakes up.
And identifies with Brahman-the-Universe-Purusha-Whole.
Does not mean compassion goes out of the window, on the contrary, compassion becomes breathing.


>>>"There is no Karma" Quote must have come from other Advaita Gurus (Nisargadatta Maharaj ?) ,
Sorry about that , but this is how it is viewed :
Re-incarnation does exist. However, not from the context of the Jivanmukta or Videhamukta , or Brahman.
Brahman is the sakshi (witness - subject) and sAkshyam (all that is witnessed - object). This that come and go - like rebirth of jivas are just inherent natural phenomena that are Brahman's Natural State of Being.

>>> However, the Jivanmukta , as sent by Ishvar/Brahman Himself, gives mercy to the baddha-jivas i.e. the fractured bones.

This is how Brahman instructs Brahman, and when Brahman listens , Brahman learns. Its all for Brahman's own good. Recycling is an inherent phenomenon , part of Brahman's 'nature' or svabhAv.


He NAth NArAyana VAsudeva

[smaranam]

Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?.

If there is no Good karma or Bad karma then there is no basis for reincarnation.

praNAm

There is no karma applies only to the liberated, who identify not with the body (kArana sharira) but with Brahman in the true sense, or to Brahman alone.

For those not familiar with types of karma :

REF : Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse on "Reincarnation" : 2nd in the list.
http://advaitaforum.org/introduction...-dr-sadananad/

...Hence what birth I take next depends on the most powerful vasana-s that are ready to germinate next. There is my ‘total bank account’ of karma (saMchita karma), of which I brought into this life only those that can be exhausted (prArabdha karma) and, if in the process I make new ones (AgAmin karma), which cannot be exhausted in this life, these are deposited to my account. Until all vasanas get neutralized, I will continue taking births in one form or the other. ...




Sanchit karma = total database of karmic debt, which can be carried over to places.

AgAmi karma = karma that one can potentially sow now. Like the quiver has arrows, do not pull one out. If you shoot, you are adding to the debt.

prArabdha karma : Karma that is ripe and can only get burnt now while in this body.

For the Jeevanmukta , sanchit and AgAmi are burnt, only prArbdha karma remains : It cannot be transferred or postponed. So, the quiver is empty.
Only have to face the consequence of the arrows already shot long ago, and are ripened.

PrArabdha has to be lived out. But by whom ? Not the Jeevanmukta who has realized the 'I' (Brahman), but prArabdha merely belongs to and applies to the jiva-body.

It is compared to a broken wheel of a bicycle, set in rolling motion to eventually wobble wobble and fall. This is how the Jeevanmukta's body works. Days left in the body are only as much as needed to exhaust prArabdha