Thatthvamasi(tatvamasi) and sankara charya vedanta

[proudhindu]

>>> It is the mercy of the heart-Guru to allow the bone/finger-disciple to serve him.

Of course that is understandable from the dvaita or the natural perspective of Jivas looking for mercy from the supreme.Because i, as a jiva need mercy of somebody higher than me.If I am nothing but Brahman whose mercy i need?.

This golden opportunity is in itself the process of removal of ignorance in the bone-disciple that wrongly thinks "i am the doer", and has durguna (bad qualities) like pride, arrogance attached to him/her.
Serving the heart-Guru brings servitude and selflessness, a virtue, which in turn dislocates the link of 'I' with the body. nAham deham.

Is Brahman covered with Ignorance?.

If the Maharshi-heart lived in his own cave, and did his own chores, the bone-disciples will not get healed. Mercy of the guru.

It gets back to the same point.Mercy of Brahman on brahman.

Re-incarnation does exist. However, not from the context of the Jivanmukta or Videhamukta , or Brahman.

But i am Brahman is it not.Isnt it odd that Brahman(i.e. me) seeking Mukti.

Brahman is the sakshi (witness - subject) and sAkshyam (all that is witnessed - object). This that come and go - like rebirth of jivas are just inherent natural phenomena that are Brahman's Natural State of Being.

Who said that?.Brahman is supreme as per shruti.Equating Jivas with Brahman is not allowed in shruti.

However, the Jivanmukta , as sent by Ishvar/Brahman Himself,

SENT by Brahman.read your own words.

[smaranam]

praNAm ProudHindu

Please read Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse on Reincarnation - 2nd in the list:
http://advaitaforum.org/introduction...-dr-sadananad/

which in a better way answers most or all of your responses, and perhaps this thread.
>>>Who / what is in ignorance,
>>>what needs healing,
>>>how does the healing take place,
..... as long as it is read as a sincere attempt to see what acharyaji has to say.

OK, Jeevanmukta is sent by Ishvara (on the vyAvahAric platform , this is only for comprehension of the embodied mind/intellect)

"Is Brahman covered by ignorance ?"
No because it is BRahman.
Jiva is covered,
the mind-intellect pool is at some places (latitude-longitude ?) covered by ignorance. This ignorance is local - to whom / what ? Local to the jiva-centre point , reference point.
However, these jiva-points are a part of Brahman.

This is what the fractured bones are about. The bones are not independant , but faulty intellect makes them think they are.

This is about local points of Brahman realizing that they are not what is perceived as matter. Its all energy, which is all Prakrti (MAyA).

More than this requires the entire VedAnta Darshan, for which I am not in the least qualified to comment.
I only wanted to share that anology.



Jai Gurudev
Jai Shri Krshna

[proudhindu]

Pranaam,

praNAm

There is no karma applies only to the liberated, who identify not with the body (kArana sharira) but with Brahman in the true sense, or to Brahman alone.

Liberated Jiva,yes.

PrArabdha has to be lived out. But by whom ? Not the Jeevanmukta who has realized the 'I' (Brahman), but prArabdha merely belongs to and applies to the jiva-body.

So there two types of Brahman?.Jivan mukta brahman and mere Jiva brahman.

Is there any limit to which Brahman can be degraded??.

Perhaps you should read Ramana maharshis translation of viveka chudamani in which he says

Prarabdha karma is illusory.This is in agreement with his Hypothesis That the world is illusory.

[smaranam]

Prarabdha karma is illusory.This is in agreement with his Hypothesis That the world is illusory.[/SIZE]

Yes, I do understand that prArabdha is illusory. But then what other language can one use to explain "Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?"

So explanation has to be on 2 levels,
one , where "what the illusion is" understood and agreed upon.
two , where it is not agreed upon OR when the mind-intellect of ignorant jiva is being addressed, which is not yet an illusion from the point of view of that mind .
In other words , the illusory jiva entangled in mAyA thinking it is the (non-existent) mind instead of Brahman.

Again, what I said in post #13 holds - that I only wanted to share the anology, I am not qualified to say anything more.

[proudhindu]

praNAm ProudHindu

Please read Acharya Dr. Sadanandaji's discourse :
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses...ation_sada.htm

which in a better way answers most or all of your responses, and perhaps this thread.
>>>Who / what is in ignorance,
>>>what needs healing,
>>>how does the healing take place,
..... as long as it is read as a sincere attempt to see what acharyaji has to say.

the link doesnt work.Pls correct it.

OK, Jeevanmukta is sent by Ishvara (on the vyAvahAric platform , this is only for comprehension of the embodied mind/intellect)

If you stick with the original work of Shankaracharya we will be saving lot of time.

"Is Brahman covered by ignorance ?"
No because it is BRahman.
Jiva is covered,

Then the saying that only brahman exists must be false.

There is the Jiva that exists and is covered by Maya, is the traditional understanding.

This is what the fractured bones are about. The bones are not independant , but faulty intellect makes them think they are.

Now, that is faulty example like the many flouted by careless advaitans.Bones are indeed independent.One controls the bones by the attached tendons.Bones cannot be controlled by Mind .

This is about local points of Brahman realizing that they are not what is perceived as matter. Its all energy, which is all Prakrti (MAyA).

Maya is not prakriti.Prakriti is real until shankaracharya's doctrine.

Jai Gurudev
Jai Shri Krshna

Perhaps you should read Gita to learn that Prakriti is real .

[smaranam]

Namaste

I have updated the links.

[proudhindu]

Namaste

I have updated the links.

Thanks.

It is painful reading that link.The real life examples some of these advaitans quote reflects upon on their own intelligence.

reading these articles reinforces the notion that the perception could be unreal but reality cannot be denied.Wrong perception is the cause of illusion.

some excerpts from the page

Look at this way: gold, iron and copper look different if these difference as taken as real.

They not only look different they have different properties.The Jivas manipulate their real differences in properties to put them to real use.

Can you say the web and the pcs by which we are chatting are unreal?.They are unreal for an ignorant person.

All dharma and adharma operate at the transaction level only. They are as real as jiiva and Isvara. Everything is included in that One - which is real from the absolute point.

Can you make something from that underlined statement?.

He is saying Jiiva and isvara are real which runs contrary to kevala advaita.

He says

As long as I think I am a jiiva, these notions are regarded as facts and Brahman does not come into picture

Yes, i think i am Jiiva and Brahman certainly is in the picture.

[proudhindu]

Yes, I do understand that prArabdha is illusory. But then what other language can one use to explain "Don't you think this completely negates the basic Hindu thought?"

So explanation has to be on 2 levels,
one , where "what the illusion is" understood and agreed upon.

And that explanation has to be based on shruti if he is not going to negate the basic hindu thought.Shankaracharya made up those 2 levels.They dont exist in shruti.That Is the whole point.

two , where it is not agreed upon OR when the mind-intellect of ignorant jiva is being addressed, which is not yet an illusion from the point of view of that mind .
In other words , the illusory jiva entangled in mAyA thinking it is the (non-existent) mind instead of Brahman.

The mind does exists.Controlling the mind is an important thing for a sadhak.This is another illusion concept of Shankaracharya.Mind is the only primary vehicle which enables us to communicate.If Mind is an illusion we wont be having this discussion at all.

[smaranam]

Namaste

If you chop and quote my statements, I do not say anything. But now you are chopping AchAryaji's statements out of context, so I speak :

This is from the same reincarnation essay by Acharya SadAnandaji

Existence-consciousness-ananda cannot be divided. If one sees divisions they are only apparent and not real. If one takes the apparent as real, then all others factors become as real.

Jiiva (soul) itself is a notion and when that notion is taken as real - all other problems become as real as jiiva. Hence reincarnation and transmigration of soul are all real in that frame of reference.
....
I can understand as a scientist they are all one - yet I can transact in the world taking gold as different from iron and copper. Transactions are done at one level while understanding is at the ultimate level - there is no confusion if one understands correctly. I know that the sun neither rises nor sets but I can still appreciate the beauty of sunrise and sunset.

That is advaita in spite of dvaita - that is no incarnation in spite of reincarnation. Karma (action) is at the transactional level. At the absolute level I realize that I am never a kartRRi (doer). That is Advaita. Advaita in spite of dvaita.

Q: But if reincarnation is not real at the ultimate level, what happens to dharma and ethics?

A: All dharma and adharma operate at the transaction level only. They are as real as jiiva and Isvara. Everything is included in that One - which is real from the absolute point.

When we say 'I am', 'I' stands for the consciousness aspect and 'am' stands for the existence aspect. When we say ‘I am this’, there is the confusion of identification of the subject ‘I am’ with the object 'this'. That is due to error ,which is due to the ignorance of not knowing that 'I am'. Right now 'I am a jiiva' is the notional understanding while ‘I am Brahman’ is the vision of my self according to the Upanishads. That true ‘I am’ has to realized or recognized.

The body is only a vehicle or instrument required to exhaust my vAsana-s. Essentially, vAsana-s decide the type of body required - man or woman, white, brown or black skin etc. I, the jiiva, gravitate towards the environment that is conducive to my vAsana-s. Hence they are called 'kAraNa shariira' or causal body....

They here, stands for dharma and adharma.
>>>So just as I enjoy sunrise-sunset at transactional level knowing well sun does not rise, earth moves.
>>>Similarly, dharma adharma jiva karma vAsana body are all at the transactional level, I can navigate at this level even though I am Brahman.

Body-mind , as instrument , vehicle is all part of that transaction. OR for those whom this works, a dream.



-----
When we started, I thought you wanted to teach us how teacher-taught is explained by Kevala Advaita. That is why I shared what I shared and tried to participate.

If you do not follow this philosophy, then please, you are more than welcome to follow Dvaita.

[proudhindu]

Namaste

If you chop and quote my statements, I do not say anything. But now you are chopping AchAryaji's statements out of context, so I speak :

I dont see anything out of context.

When we started, I thought you wanted to teach us how teacher-taught is explained by Kevala Advaita.

I am questioning kevala advaita.I am not sure i created an illusion that i am teaching something.

Body-mind , as instrument , vehicle is all part of that transaction. OR for those whom this works, a dream.

That prakruti is an illusion directly contradicts Bhagavad gita.

13:23 He who thus knows purusa and prakrti together with the modes, though he acts in every way, he is not born again.

As per kevala advaita Krishna is telling us to know something which is an illusion.

So, take your pick.Kevala Advaita doctrine or Bhagavad gita.