Re: ...does not exist?
Pranam Nara
Please allow me to intrude in your conversation with sanjaya.
You have made some damming accusation, I must say some off it has pained me no ends, how far what you say about Ramanujacharya is true I don’t know, I must say I am relatively ignorant about south Indian history.
Originally Posted by
Nara
Dear sanjaya, Greetings!
The flock is kept in line with the threat of eternal damnation, as in the case of Christianity and Islam, and at least a sojourn in hell and a polluting rebirth in the case of Hinduism. All religions have their way of imposing faith in handed down wisdom.
Nice try to lump hindus in the same brackets with abramhamic religion. Weather you like it or not children will always be influenced by the parents, that would include religion as well as all the rest, behaviour and all.
Tree would be judged by the fruit it provide, as we say in Guajarati, Bap jevo beto ane Vad jevo teto.
If you plant certain brand of seeds you will expect similar brand to sprout out.
Off course in your case I can not expect you to understand the concept of reincarnation and the karma since you as an atheist, cease to exists after you die, so what else to do, except a great struggle for survival, and that is all there is to it. lord Krishna describes this state in chapter 16 in Gita.
This is certainly not the case with atheists. Atheism is a return to normal state when a thinking person finds out that theism is just handed down doctrine. This realization comes not from simply believing another handed down and inerrant doctrine of say, Charvaka, or Budda, or Ingersoll, or even Dawkins, but from a critical analysis of the arguments these people present. Only if they persuade you by their logic and evidence, then you return to your original state that others call atheist. But for an infinitesimal few, parents and the larger society don’t permit children to develop naturally, they drill their handed down religious beliefs into them. Bombarded with theism from all sides, children get corrupted early on.
What is this original state or normal state?
What would you prefer a state where there is no rules and no one to answer to?
Or on a dharmic rules where karma is at the heart off it, you take responsibility off your actions?
Nothing would make sense if the concept of Karma is missed. A child would naturally pick up from where it left off that is why it would take birth in a particular circumstance.
What would be natural development for a child you ask?
It will always be influenced by the circumstance it is placed in, be it in a slum of Mumbai or Brixton in London, or in somewhere posh in an affluent family.
I think Hindus fall short on most counts of this definition. It is not apathy, it is contempt. As you go higher up in the ladder of varna/caste among Hindus, the level contempt rises in a non-linear fashion.
I think you have been greatly corrupted and influenced by British, they used all the tricks in the books to discredit the varna system because it worked perfectly.
A great responsibility is placed on a Brahmin he had vigorous training given from a very early age, his quality is exemplary or else he is Brahmin in name only same goes for kshatriya his is to uphold the dharma. Brits succeeded in driving a wedge in varna system and you guys are simply parroting same all propaganda. Now the system is in shambles because everyone has a view on it looking at the shambles.
Or else even up to three hundred years ago under the subjugation of foreign rule this is what was observed and I quote
Break her backbone
It was February 1835, a time when the British were striving to take control of the whole of India. Lord Macaulay, a historian and a politician, made a historical speech in the British Parliament, commonly referred to as The Minutes, which struck a blow at the centuries old system of Indian education.
His words were to this effect: I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.
Neither Buddisim nor Jainism was eradicated through debate alone. There are verses in the Azhvar poems in which violence against Buddas and Jainas is extolled as righteous acts. There is a specific mention in the hagiography of Sri Vaishnava acharayas of an instance when Ramanuja, having defeated his Jain opponents in the present daya Karnataka, won over the king and had all the defeated Jains put to death in a horrifying way. Ramanuja himself was hounded out of sri Rangam on religious grounds, and the eyes of his aged acharya and at least one disciple were gouged out. The acharya died immediately.
This indeed is shocking news to me, is this historical facts or here say?
I must say Gujarat where I come from such violence are not known to me.
Besides it is not Hindu dharma because non-violence is one of the pillar of it, so you can not tarnish the dharma if the followers do not adhere by it.
And then there was Raja Raja, and Rejendra Chola. They expanded their Hindu empire across East Asia by sword. Though not to the extent of Christians and Muslims, Hindus also are guilty of expansionist wars far beyond their natural borders..
Here again was it a Hindu doctrine or a command by Hindu religion or was it simply a kings desires to expand its territory?
Krishna clearly says in Gita do not speak this to a non believer so where is the question of forcible conversion?
But, Sri Krishna was talking about duties of Varnas. If you are kshatriya, then it is better to do kshatriya darma even poorly than brahmana darma perfectly. This is the source for some to think a toilet cleaner must remain a toilet cleaner, because that is his darma. Further, his children also must remain toilet cleaners.
I make no apology for varna system, nor do I condone those who misuse it for their personal gain or pride.
You make it sound as if the toilet cleaner is some horrible job, and it does sound like it because most off us would not choose such a job. Yet if we sit down and ponder a bit, who is the best toilet cleaner? Mother who is selflessly cleaning toilets of her offspring’s and maintaining the house doing all kind off jobs which we take it for granted.
Everyone is equal in grand scheme of things yet not everyone has same role, my head, hands, belly and legs perform different roles. If my karma placed me in certain circumstance, I simply have to accept it and if I don’t like it again I have to strive for some thing new until I succeed . but the goal of varnashram is ultimately mosksa.
Unlike you who consider birth has no reason or rime, if by chance you were born not so intelligent and had to do toilet cleaning job that would be it, by your atheist logic only one life and make the most off it and don’t tell me outside of Hindu dharma such condition do not prevail.
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
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