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Thread: Hello fellow travellers

  1. #1
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    Hello fellow travellers

    I am joining this forum to debate Advaitam at the invitation of a respected member. I hope I live up to his trust and expectations.

    It is not uncommon for people to introduce themselves in religious terms, but I feel that is too narrow. I would like to call myself just a "human being". I don't mean this in a condescending way at all. To me, any affiliation beyond this builds walls.

    Since this forum is a religious forum let me say something about my world-view on this matter. I do not believe in a personal god who listens and answers prayers, like Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Jesus, Allah and the like. As far as an impersonal god a la Spinoza, I am a little ambivalent and could characterize myself as an agnostic. But in a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being complete belief in a supernatural power that controls everything and 10 being absolute disbelief in such a power, I am definitely in the upper half and a lot closer to 10 than 5. The only reason I am not at 10 is because it is logically unsustainable in as much as a negative cannot be proved.

    Politically, I am very progressive, I voted for Ralph Nader this past US Presidential election. I think education, job with decent income, quality health care, worry-free retirement are among the fundamental human rights. All human beings are essentially equal and must be treated so. I loath the karma/reincarnation based varna/caste system.

    Hope this explains who I am to some extent. I hope to have decent and civil exchanges, and make some new friends.

    Thank you....

  2. #2
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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Vannakkam Nara:

    Welcome to the forums. I hope you find your travel here fruitful.

    Aum namasivaya

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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    namaste Nara and other members.

    It is I who invited Prof.Nara to discuss Advaita with us. I happened to know him through a thread in the Tamilbrahmins.com forum where we were discussing Advaita. It was with his queries that I opened the 'How do we counter this argument' thread, which is currently under much discussion and debate. As I considered Prof.Nara's down-to-earth views useful (to find answers to) for Hindus in general and Advaitins in particular, I invited him to partake discussions in that thread and other threads as may see himself fit to discuss them.

    Welcome, Prof.Nara! I hope you will find your stay here at HDF useful and make new friends.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  4. #4

    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    I am joining this forum to debate Advaitam at the invitation of a respected member. I hope I live up to his trust and expectations.

    It is not uncommon for people to introduce themselves in religious terms, but I feel that is too narrow. I would like to call myself just a "human being". I don't mean this in a condescending way at all. To me, any affiliation beyond this builds walls.

    Since this forum is a religious forum let me say something about my world-view on this matter. I do not believe in a personal god who listens and answers prayers, like Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Jesus, Allah and the like. As far as an impersonal god a la Spinoza, I am a little ambivalent and could characterize myself as an agnostic. But in a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being complete belief in a supernatural power that controls everything and 10 being absolute disbelief in such a power, I am definitely in the upper half and a lot closer to 10 than 5. The only reason I am not at 10 is because it is logically unsustainable in as much as a negative cannot be proved.

    Politically, I am very progressive, I voted for Ralph Nader this past US Presidential election. I think education, job with decent income, quality health care, worry-free retirement are among the fundamental human rights. All human beings are essentially equal and must be treated so. I loath the karma/reincarnation based varna/caste system.

    Hope this explains who I am to some extent. I hope to have decent and civil exchanges, and make some new friends.

    Thank you....
    Welcome gentleman
    You quoted I do not believe in a personal god who listens and answers prayers, like Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Jesus, Allah and the like.
    Well , You believe in a deaf and dumb god then , is it ?
    myself as an agnostic. But in a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being complete belief in a supernatural power that controls everything and 10 being absolute disbelief in such a power .
    So who is that 1is it Buddha or else ?
    Thanks

  5. #5
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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Yes the journey begins when we ask who am i where am i going?

    Pranam Nara

    Welcome to, in my opinion a great Forum hosted by Satay ji, you will find most here are very civil.

    Like you I also do not like any tags, for the same reason as I would not like to be boxed in and not be able to think outside of it.

    So why Hindu you may ask? Precisely for the same reason because it does not stop me from asking questions or requires me to submit to any one path but it is well grounded in eternal Vedas.

    But as belief goes, we could not be different regards personal God or karma and reincarnation and by default varna system, but let that not be a hindrance in any form, as they say variety is a spice of life.

    So once again welcome.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  6. #6
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    Smile Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Welcome to the Forum!

    Faith and belief are dangerous twins as if you are on the wrong side or unintelligent to accept the Truth or accept something purely rational as the final, then you will be mislead.

    You out rightly denied your faith in personal God as well as having very little idea and faith about Super natural power if i understood your message properly. Do you mind if we interact about this with some fundamental points cleared. I do not want to bargain lot of your time if you are already 'busy' dealing with Advaita etc.

    If you are rational, (Prof. title indicates just some aspects of it) and also open enough to admit certain rational points then i think i will be very much interested to have a discussion with you to know why you deny "personal" God and also what makes you "Agnostic" rather then just an "Atheist"?

    Also i would like to state about myself for profit of knowing the other side. I am hard core rationalist and also have room for certain aspects of nature which are beyond just logic and any mind/intellect based deduction. I do disagree with impersonal 'form' as God or in better words God as some pure energy entity which is intrinsically of consciousness, knowledge and bliss etc. My belief or faith gives me scientific, logical and rational direction towards God, who is very much Personal though not on any material terms of conception etc. with sacred attributes in abundance and also a greatest will power to create, maintain and destroy anything and everything using/utilizing His power and as per His will (ShakthiMaan and Shakthi).

    You said:
    All human beings are essentially equal and must be treated so.

    This is very tricky thing if you in fact start to think what happens to this world if we consider all are "equal" and also "treat" all as equal. This sentence require a lot more conditional criteria to become valid for the words "equal" and "treated" ( like integral with limits enforced). You cannot treat some random girl as your wife etc. and can you convince your wife that you are treating all girls with "equality"? (Please take this example as a joke..nothing serious ). This is where the beginning of "differentiation" takes its practical reality and also the crux of troubles and simultaneously the intelligence to go beyond this "bondage". (Do you like maths?)

    You said:
    I loath the karma/reincarnation based varna/caste system.

    They are four different things . Karma != reincarnation. Varna != Caste. But, i am sure there are millions who for their selfish purpose abused a natural system of classification and nature's justice system thinking they can Rule over it. And sadly, there are another set of millions who put their faith in such abused idea of artificial parity system.

    You can ignore this message if you wish with a friendly note.

    Welcome again for the friendship!

  7. #7
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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Hello Prof. Nara, glad to meet you. Though I do believe in a personal God, I have never found an agnostic stance by itself to be particularly offensive, and I think that there is room in Hinduism for this viewpoint as well. I look forward to reading your posts.

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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    namaskar,

    Well, I find that 'agnostic' is a very interesting position to be in. Who among us can say for 'sure' what Truth is? Can anyone? We can talk, discuss, believe, have faith etc. etc. until the cows come hoem but until there is a trace of 'doubt', isn't it perfectly okay to be called 'agnostic' if one doesn't want the lable 'hindu'?

    Just my 2 cents.

    Welcome to HDF prof. nara. Good to have you here.
    satay

  9. #9
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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Hello folks, thank you for the warm welcome I am receiving, I really appreciate it. I would like to respond to this one in particular for two reaons (i) he has taken the trouble to prepare a long welcome, and (ii) I like the humor in his (or is it her?) post.

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Welcome to the Forum!
    If you are rational, (Prof. title indicates just some aspects of it)
    Ha! here is your first mistake, just because somebody hired me as a professor do not assume I have any claim to rationality . But, at the same time, I appreciate your generosity of according me at least an a priori status of being a rational being.

    ...why you deny "personal" God and also what makes you "Agnostic" rather then just an "Atheist"?
    I deny "personal" god because there is no evidence for it. It is not logical for a compassionate personal god, or an incompassionate one for that matter, to hide behind anything. I don't buy the argument that you have to have faith to see god, if anything god has an obligation to show himself or herself or itself up to the unfaithful. Parent metaphor is often invoked with respect to personal god, and I just can't think of a more uncaring parent than the personal gods bandied about.

    Now, my agnosticism is only about a supernatural power that cares little about humans. Even here, I classify myself as an agnostic only because being a total non-believer is illogically in as much as a negative cannot be proved. So, for all intents and purposes I don't believe even in an impersonal but non-physical power that has its hands on the levers of the universal constants.

    From all the evidences that are available and verified by the only process that is not based on handed down wisdom that cannot be questioned, namely science, we can say that it is very unlikely that human existence has any purpose other than a society of genes to survive and replicate itself. The self, or soul, or consciousness one experiences is nothing but a state of brain chemicals and neuron activities. When we die nothing is lost, for there is nothing left. If we have children, then they carry a part of us. Memories of us live after us, we can call this memes if you like. These memes also die except for those who make an indelible mark like Ambedkar for good, or Hitler for bad.

    You said:
    All human beings are essentially equal and must be treated so.

    You cannot treat some random girl as your wife etc. and can you convince your wife that you are treating all girls with "equality"? (Please take this example as a joke..nothing serious ).
    This is what I meant earlier about your humor. Nicely done, I had a good laugh

    What I mean to say is, all humans are equal in essence -- that is no one is superior or inferior in any way. Differentiation comes only with action. I like to be friends with a kind person, a witty person, et al., but not with a rude person, a prudish person etc. Also, being honest and faithful is not inconsistent with treating all with equal kindness.

    BTW, I am not a math major, but I would like to think of myself as more quantitative than touchy feely.


    They are four different things . Karma != reincarnation. Varna != Caste.
    IMHO, karma and reincarnation form the the intellectual basis for varna/caste system that I consider pernicious. While varna is not identical to caste, they are related. Karma is not reincarnation, but it is supposed to be karma that results in a new birth. If one has annihilated all karma, then there is no rebirth. All this is pure mumbo jumbo to me.

    Welcome again for the friendship!
    I appreciate your friendly welcome. Hope we can learn from each other.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Nara; 10 March 2010 at 08:23 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Hello fellow travellers

    Hello Nara. I hope you don't mind if I intrude on this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Ha! here is your first mistake, just because somebody hired me as a professor do not assume I have any claim to rationality . But, at the same time, I appreciate your generosity of according me at least an a priori status of being a rational being.
    It's not entirely undeserved. Like you I also work in an academic community, and I think that people like ourselves are subject to social pressures that cause us to think rationally. The way I talk about rationality and criticize superstition, many people often mistake me for an atheist. Perhaps it's not entirely undeserved either; it's not every day you find a Hindu who doesn't believe in astrology or auspicious days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    I deny "personal" god because there is no evidence for it. It is not logical for a compassionate personal god, or an incompassionate one for that matter, to hide behind anything. I don't buy the argument that you have to have faith to see god, if anything god has an obligation to show himself or herself or itself up to the unfaithful.
    Most people, through their daily experiences, don't see any reason to believe in a personal God. Indeed, when someone prays to God and hears no audible response, it's hard to believe that he exists. However, God has incarnated himself in various avatars throughout the years. In ancient times God came to us in forms such as Krishna, Narasimha, etc. In more recent times, God has become incarnate in forms such as Sri Guru and Shirdi Sai Baba (the latter lived just over a hundred years ago!). Now, why would God become incarnate in these forms and only communicate with a small number of people living in local geographic regions? That, I don't know. I'm not a theologian (I'm not even all that well-versed in Hindu Scripture), and I can't answer questions of theodicy very well. But I think we may be going a bit far to say that there is no evidence for a personal God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Parent metaphor is often invoked with respect to personal god, and I just can't think of a more uncaring parent than the personal gods bandied about.
    I find this metaphor to not be stressed as often in Hinduism. There are a few instances of God being portrayed as a father or mother figure. But Hinduism emphasizes that our first duty is to our actual mother and father, not God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Now, my agnosticism is only about a supernatural power that cares little about humans. Even here, I classify myself as an agnostic only because being a total non-believer is illogically in as much as a negative cannot be proved. So, for all intents and purposes I don't believe even in an impersonal but non-physical power that has its hands on the levers of the universal constants.
    Can't argue with this one. Fine-tuning arguments are academically very poor, especially when we consider the anthropic principle. But again, a person who has seen God in the flesh will likely not be concerned with cosmological arguments for God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    From all the evidences that are available and verified by the only process that is not based on handed down wisdom that cannot be questioned, namely science, we can say that it is very unlikely that human existence has any purpose other than a society of genes to survive and replicate itself. The self, or soul, or consciousness one experiences is nothing but a state of brain chemicals and neuron activities. When we die nothing is lost, for there is nothing left. If we have children, then they carry a part of us. Memories of us live after us, we can call this memes if you like. These memes also die except for those who make an indelible mark like Ambedkar for good, or Hitler for bad.
    I sense that your underlying assumption is that Hinduism cannot be questioned. But Hinduism is not like Western religion, where dissent is punishable by death. As I said earlier, I myself question some of the Hindu superstitions myself, and no one has ever called me a heretic or threatened to kick me out of the temple. By all means question Hinduism and reject any part of it that you can't justify with your own reason. But certain parts of Hinduism can be confirmed by sensory experience, as can be attested to by those who practice yoga and meditation seriously. When these spiritual truths can be confirmed experientially, I don't think that we can dismiss them so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    BTW, I am not a math major, but I would like to think of myself as more quantitative than touchy feely.
    Heh, I was a math major. Feel free to discard any touchy feeliness in our conversations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    IMHO, karma and reincarnation form the the intellectual basis for varna/caste system that I consider pernicious. While varna is not identical to caste, they are related. Karma is not reincarnation, but it is supposed to be karma that results in a new birth. If one has annihilated all karma, then there is no rebirth. All this is pure mumbo jumbo to me.
    Yes, karma and reincarnation are important ideas and are connected to varna. However it has to be stressed that Scripturally-speaking, varna is not an inherited trait. The inheritance of varna is a later addition made by human beings. Bhagavad Gita says that God created the four varnas. But varna is based on one's occupation, which doesn't depend on birth. For example, I am a brahmin by birth, but I am not a priest. Going by Hindu Scripture, I should not be considered a brahmin at all. While this could very well be related to my karma, God did not intend for the varna system to be what it sadly is today.

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