Help needed... Regarding caste system.

[sanjaya]

I'm not sure how easily it'll be enforced.

It will be made especially difficult because of the fact that free societies necessarily have to tolerate intolerance. For example, here in the United States, we have legally protected classes (e.g. race, religion, culture, etc.), and discrimination against these classes is illegal. However, such legislation does not prohibit racist groups like the KKK from existing, because they also have a Constitutional right to peacefully assemble and speak freely. In fact, in the past the ACLU (which consists largely of Jews) has defended the rights of racist groups in the courts. In order to be a tolerant society, we have to allow racist people to do as they please.

My guess (assuming the UK is anything like the US) is that if these UK laws are passed, they will prohibit people in the government, as well as employers, from discriminating against the lower castes. But they may not prevent temples from barring entry to lower caste Hindus.

It is said that you are what your genes are. Parents only pass on the genetic material which they received as a gene pool of their family from their parents.
Our masters of yore had perhaps this knowledge of genetics and knew that to admit a child of a shudra to their gurukul would be like teaching nuclear science to a child. His mental capability were not advanced enough, though after couple of incarnations , he might find himself in a family of twice born.

Rkpande, I know that this isn't your intent, but the above thinking was used here in the United States to justify black slavery. In fact, the Confederate General Robert E. Lee once said the following concerning African Americans:

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

Does this not sound similar to the idea that the lower castes are not yet fit to learn the more advanced teachings of Hindu religion?

[TatTvamAsi]

Hi Anupj.

I think our Scriptures are clear that varna is not based on birth, but on vocation. As you say, right now people judge varna on the basis of one's family name, and this sort of thing should not be happening.

I'm aware that some people do hold to this birth-based idea of caste. Being Brahmin myself, all of the people I know who hold this view are Brahmins (makes sense that the people in power should want to hold onto that power). But I'd be interested to know what other people believe about this view of caste.

Your post is fraught with erroneous claims and assumptions.

That which is based on vocation is jAtI. That which is based on ancestry/lineage is varnA.

You should really read more about it. Caste has been beaten to death here on HDF.

Secondly, since when were Brahmins "in power"? Kings, vassals, and other nobles were almost always Kshatriya; it was needed to effectively rule. There have been exceptions of course.

Even in the modern day, Brahmins were never in power. Most Brahmins are suffering in India and many have flocked elsewhere in search of better fortunes.

It is highly puerile to keep harping that Varna is not based on birth. It is absolutely based on lineage/ancestry which is a result of one's guna/karma in previous lifetimes.

How can you not grasp such a simple flow of logic? And you claim to be a scientist? lolol....

And to answer your question about scientists, scientists, or enquirers of TRUTH, were always Brahmins in India. In the modern sense of course, where so-called scientific enquiry is limited to the phenomenal universe, does not encapsulate real enquiry into the nature of reality as the latter is based on self-enquiry. Hence you have all sorts of mlecchas who are self-proclaimed "scientists" and promulgators of "truth".

[anupj]

hello friends,
thank you for your helpful posts, could anyone provide me with some verses of our scriptures which support our argument. i could make good use of those. one of the verses which i can use as a support is from the Gita, it is in 18th chapter, and verse no. is somewhere in the 40s. In it Lord Krishna says that one belongs to some varna based on his nature only. And i believe that one can change his nature by time hence varna may also change.

i agree with sambya a bit, because, basically i also dont make judgements about anyone based on his family name. I have actually found some people belonging to the so called "shudra caste" but having very insightful thoughts about the world, while some people belonging to the "brahmin caste" but being very selfish, materiallistic and some even having atheistic views.

regards

anup