Page 19 of 27 FirstFirst ... 9151617181920212223 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 190 of 266

Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

  1. #181
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    I don't know why varna/jati or caste system is even of any importance to a non-indian. Why pay so much attention to it?

    Why not just 'live' like a hindu.
    If you don't like indian food, fine.
    If you don't like india, fine.
    If you don't like indians, fine.
    If you don't like indian clothes, fine.
    If you rather not care for the cows, fine.

    Why care about all this if you are not an indian? These things are only relevant to Indians so...just 'be' a hindu as best as you can in this life.
    Nice Post, Satay ! I agree with the above except the "cow" part. (can't help it .... the sanskars are too strong !) The caste system is relevant only to Indians and India. The non-Indians should not worry about it.

    The best advice : Just be a Hindu as best as you can in this life !

    Let's all Indians and non-Indian Hindus work towards becoming the best possible Hindus in this life.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #182
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyaban View Post
    Namaste

    Perhaps wondering a little off topic but what went wrong? The varna system became the cast system because those in the upper echelons of society decided that their positions were determined by birth and inheritary. Those born in the lower strata of society were treated like dirt because they were born into their status by karma.

    Am I wrong?
    What is "inheritary"?

    Secondly, it's not quite as simple as you stated. "upper echelons" in society is not equated with material wealth like it is in the west. In Hinduism, spiritual wealth, not even mere scriptural knowledge, is considered the 'highest'. Thus, those with the strongest inclination towards learning the Vedas (the nature of reality) were accorded the most respect among the citizens. Their (Brahmins') interests were transcendental and was for the wellbeing of the WHOLE society. It was, is, and never will be about the individual. That is something non-Indians/non-Hindus have a really hard time understanding.

    The "lower" castes, and it is actually best not to use such terms, were stuck with their vocational training from father to son as was the Brahmin boy's except in the case of Brahmins and other dvIjA (twice-born males), they went to study the Vedas under the tutelage of a self-realized guru during their brahmacarya (until ~24). The sUdrAs were discouraged from learning the Vedas for several reasons. The untouchables (non-Hindus/non-Indians) are far too low to comprehend even the bASyAs (commentaries), let alone the real thing. Their lifestyle was/is not conducive to spirituality at all and thus they were/are kept aloof. The same tradition continues today.

    Everyone is born according to their vAsanAs (latent tendencies from previous births). Thus, the guna/karma from previous births determine where, when, and whom you are born to.

    Even the gItA discourages varnasankara (admixture of castes).

  3. #183
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    why is caste brought up every couple of weeks on HDF. do these people ever use the 'search' button?

    Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) is very easy to explain:

    CASTE is good.

    --Caste is determined by birth, character, and action. The last two determined/determines the previous/next birth.

    CASTEISM is bad.

    --Casteism, or discrimination based on caste, arises due to societal norms which have broken down over millenia in India. Birth became the presiding factor and the other two, character & action, were relegated to secondary status. Thus, those being born in so-called "higher" castes ill-treated some of the "lower" caste people. Education of Varnashrama Dharma can eradicate casteISM.

    Many people, especially mlecchas, have a knee-jerk reaction to Varna.

    In India, we have a habit of saying what we mean and meaning what we say.

    End of story.

  4. #184

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    We might be placed somewhere at birth for some reason. But it does not mean that everyone has to be stuck all life long in the same social configuration. Thinking that all the kids have to follow the same way of their parents because of their nature and that it is the best for them and the society shows a lack of maturity and understanding of life and human nature. As a Science teacher, I can notice for sure that it is not always the best for the young and the society.

    Varna in a broad sense is a fact, there are basically four types found in every society. There are also people out of the society for some reasons. As far as I am concerned I do not care about jati, it does not change the fact of gunas and varnas in the broad sense or social types exist outside this Indian social system. I for one strive to realize all 4 ideals in an integral way in my life, i.e. basically wisdom, force, harmony, service.

    Of course it matters for Westerners, this is also one of the reasons why Westerners are more interested in Buddhism. Not necessarily because they want to join some jati, but it is annoying to be considered a second citizen by a few ignorant people in the spiritual field when one strives for liberation and harmony.

    By the way, maybe without this mindset : one can be Hindu only by birth, no one can convert, stay in your caste, there would not have been so many muslims today in India, maybe Pakistan, Bangladesh would not have existed. Despite all the atrocities, violence has not always been used for conversions. There is also karma for such tendencies.

    Philippe

  5. #185
    Join Date
    April 2010
    Location
    Almere
    Age
    47
    Posts
    151
    Rep Power
    56

    Talking Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Withdrawn as I do not wish to be brought to another's level, I am better than that and no matter how much sense we make, there are some things so engrained in us we can never change it in others even if the scriptures support our ideas.
    Last edited by Darji; 14 May 2010 at 08:50 AM.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Md USA
    Age
    75
    Posts
    55
    Rep Power
    233

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    why is caste brought up every couple of weeks on HDF. do these people ever use the 'search' button?

    Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) is very easy to explain:

    CASTE is good.

    --Caste is determined by birth, character, and action. The last two determined/determines the previous/next birth.

    CASTEISM is bad.

    --Casteism, or discrimination based on caste, arises due to societal norms which have broken down over millenia in India. Birth became the presiding factor and the other two, character & action, were relegated to secondary status. Thus, those being born in so-called "higher" castes ill-treated some of the "lower" caste people. Education of Varnashrama Dharma can eradicate casteISM.

    Many people, especially mlecchas, have a knee-jerk reaction to Varna.

    In India, we have a habit of saying what we mean and meaning what we say.

    End of story.

    Don't get so worked up.
    I have no problem with varnadharma but do you agree with me that the system has been perverted. Also do you agree that karma presents challenges to be overcome for the evolution of the soul?
    All is Siva there is nothing without Siva.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    By the way, maybe without this mindset : one can be Hindu only by birth, no one can convert, stay in your caste, there would not have been so many muslims today in India, maybe Pakistan, Bangladesh would not have existed. Despite all the atrocities, violence has not always been used for conversions. There is also karma for such tendencies.
    You are absolutely right ! Unfortunately people with such mindset forget to see how much harm they are doing to Hinduism. The Hindu Society has changed a lot today due to tireless efforts of many great saints but just 200 years ago (before India's independence), it was very easy to be thrown out of Hindu society and there was no path to return back ! How stupid and how unfortunate ? On one hand Abrahimic missionaries are leaving no stone unturned to convert people & on the other we are here trying to create fissure in our own society by casteism. We are treating our own people like sub-humans in the name of caste ! This is the reason we lost hundreds of thousands of our hindu tribals to christianity. We lost another hundreds of thousands of our people to Islam and also to Buddhism.

    But did we learn any lesson ? When well educated Hindus like TTA have this mentality ... how can we blame the semi-literate ignorant people who in one way or the other harming the cause of Hindutava in the world ?

    The Eastern religions are the hope to save this world from going spiritually bankrupt. The spiritual seeker fed up from Christianity and Islam are trying to come to Hindu fold which is a very good sign for peace for this entire world. If we Hindus encourage them ... if we go a certain distance to help them .... we can get many such seekers. And that would create a ripple effect .... one will bring another ten and that would spread the great eastern philosophy in this world and bring peace in this world.

    But alas ! What are doing here ? We are trying tooth and nail to discourage them .... "hey you are dirty" ... "you are mlechha" .... "you are avarna" etc. etc. .... is this the civilised way we learnt from our ancestors to greet our guests ? Are we really considering our guests as God as we are taught ? This is the reason that even after being so spiritually so rich we Hindus are not increasing in number but the Islam is increasing ... Buddhism is increasing (Buddhism ... which is just a tiny part of whole of Hinduism !).

    And let's all remember ... my words may be ignored ... I may not be considered worthy for being given any serious thought to my words ... but let's not forget Lord Krishna's words .... hurting anyone's sentiments is hurting the God in the heart of everyone. How are we going to save ourselves from our own Karma ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #188
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    We might be placed somewhere at birth for some reason.
    Except, it is not "some" reason that you are born in a certain place etc. Actions & character from previous births, their fruits, appropriately termed karmaphala, manifest at different junctions in one's journey (of the jIvA--soul).

    Thus, taking responsibility for one's actions, which sounds awfully "right-wing" to most lib-left idiots, is actually stressed in Hinduism. There is no action that is not taken without some karmic flow behind it. Perhaps one is unaware of it at that time (with the limited mind), but remember, if God was God, there is nothing that happens independently or 'randomly'. This is why we say, if certain things in life persist, perhaps it was meant to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    But it does not mean that everyone has to be stuck all life long in the same social configuration.
    And it never was that way! Until the 20th century, Varnashrama was never looked upon as oppressive except by the untouchables (Britishers), who then used it to their advantage in subjugating the local populace. Resentment started to build among the masses and what resulted? Massive anti-Brahminism and in the case of certain states in India, vehement anti-Hinduism. All this occurred due to the ignorance of a few, ill-treatment by some Brahmins, and the manipulation of the purport of the system as a whole by both Indians and foreigners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    Varna in a broad sense is a fact, there are basically four types found in every society. There are also people out of the society for some reasons. As far as I am concerned I do not care about jati, it does not change the fact of gunas and varnas in the broad sense or social types exist outside this Indian social system. I for one strive to realize all 4 ideals in an integral way in my life, i.e. basically wisdom, force, harmony, service.
    Hate to break it to you, but, "you" don't matter at all. That is actually the basic message of Sanatana Dharma. This is the fundamental dichotomy between Eastern philosophy and Western ones where the emphasis on the individual is encouraged in the case of the latter and discouraged in that of the former. Thus, for someone coming from that (western) mindset, Varnashrama looks "evil" and is misconstrued as manipulative and oppressive of the unprivileged in society.

    Yet, most of these crusaders against caste, who are filled to the brim with ignorance and hubris, don't know that Brahmins, the "high" caste people, are almost always materially poor! They immediately think it is the "rich, manipulative rascal" vs. the 'hardworking, under-privileged plebeian'. It was never that way. Without the knowledge of Indian history and Hinduism, you are nobody to be making derisive remarks about caste. That is why I put my opinions bluntly. Giving credence to your, and other westerners', misinformed mentality would be a great mistake and so I try to snip it at the bud.

    Apart from BIRTH, CHARACTER, and ACTION, LIFESTYLE (which involves character, action, and birth) is also very important. Thus, this is why Hindus have no qualms about calling a spade a spade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    Of course it matters for Westerners, this is also one of the reasons why Westerners are more interested in Buddhism.
    So? And that's good then! Go to Buddhism. That is my point! You people are not ready for Hinduism; you have not evolved enough. Thus, sticking to something more palatable to you might be the best bet (for all).

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe* View Post
    By the way, maybe without this mindset : one can be Hindu only by birth, no one can convert, stay in your caste, there would not have been so many muslims today in India, maybe Pakistan, Bangladesh would not have existed. Despite all the atrocities, violence has not always been used for conversions. There is also karma for such tendencies.
    Bending the truth and changing facts to cajole someone is not what Hindus do. Unfortunately, many so-called Hindus in the modern day seem to put aside facts and principles of Hindu philosophy to be accommodating; something I think is noble, but unwise in the long run for several reasons. A Hindu is born, not converted. End of story. There have been exceptions and that's fine, but it is not something to be trifled with.

    And regarding pakistan & bangladesh, you are completely mistaken. pakistan exists due to the inability of muslims to coexist with others peacefully and the rascality of the British. bangladesh exists because of India; without which those scumbags would be licking the shoes of pakistanis today. Again, this proves my point I made earlier. Don't talk about something you have no clue about--Indian history.

    And last but not least, it is ONLY because of the strength of the caste system that India is still Hindu. It is only because of Varnashrama Dharma that India is not a muslim/christian/communist country. So, caste is not going away. Casteism on the other hand, we can do without.

  9. #189
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyaban View Post
    Don't get so worked up.
    I have no problem with varnadharma but do you agree with me that the system has been perverted. Also do you agree that karma presents challenges to be overcome for the evolution of the soul?
    The system was, is, and always will be perfect. Otherwise, we'd be practicing something manmade and imperfect! Varnashrama Dharma is from the Lord! Thus, there are no imperfections.

    Its application on the other hand, of course, there have been innumerable misapplications of Varnashrama. Why? We are not in the guidance of seers and are instead filled with hubris and misinformation; myself included.

    Regarding karma, I'm afraid you need to read more about it. Karma is not a 'separate' entity that keeps tabs on what you do and when to dock you or give you brownie points. It is your own making through thoughts, deeds, and intentions; physically, emotionally, and mentally. Thus, it is like a mist that surrounds our jIvA; that clouds the undifferentiated AtmA. Karma is borne as a result of functioning through the three gunAs; sattva, rajas, and tamas. Sri Krishna tells us in the GitA that none, not even the subtlest life-form is free from the three gunAs. Thus, in that sense, they are a 'challenge'. However, we don't take births on a whim; we take births due to unfulfilled desires, vAsanAs, and the kArmic flow. When one realizes that the apparent separation from "another" is not based in reality, one realizes "TAT TVAM ASI"! At which, according to the Vedas, we transcend the three gunAs, freed from the bondage of karma and consequently birth & death.

    Until then, however, we have to play by the rules. Think of it like a chess game. We have FREEDOM WITHIN the bounds of the game (this manifested universe/creation). We play by the rules, serve our purpose, strive to really know who we are, and then keep moving on in the journey. And in the meantime, let us hope we attract goodness from all directions.
    Last edited by TatTvamAsi; 15 May 2010 at 01:51 AM.

  10. #190
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    You are absolutely right ! Unfortunately people with such mindset forget to see how much harm they are doing to Hinduism. The Hindu Society has changed a lot today due to tireless efforts of many great saints but just 200 years ago (before India's independence), it was very easy to be thrown out of Hindu society and there was no path to return back ! How stupid and how unfortunate ? On one hand Abrahimic missionaries are leaving no stone unturned to convert people & on the other we are here trying to create fissure in our own society by casteism. We are treating our own people like sub-humans in the name of caste ! This is the reason we lost hundreds of thousands of our hindu tribals to christianity. We lost another hundreds of thousands of our people to Islam and also to Buddhism.

    But did we learn any lesson ? When well educated Hindus like TTA have this mentality ... how can we blame the semi-literate ignorant people who in one way or the other harming the cause of Hindutava in the world ?

    The Eastern religions are the hope to save this world from going spiritually bankrupt. The spiritual seeker fed up from Christianity and Islam are trying to come to Hindu fold which is a very good sign for peace for this entire world. If we Hindus encourage them ... if we go a certain distance to help them .... we can get many such seekers. And that would create a ripple effect .... one will bring another ten and that would spread the great eastern philosophy in this world and bring peace in this world.

    But alas ! What are doing here ? We are trying tooth and nail to discourage them .... "hey you are dirty" ... "you are mlechha" .... "you are avarna" etc. etc. .... is this the civilised way we learnt from our ancestors to greet our guests ? Are we really considering our guests as God as we are taught ? This is the reason that even after being so spiritually so rich we Hindus are not increasing in number but the Islam is increasing ... Buddhism is increasing (Buddhism ... which is just a tiny part of whole of Hinduism !).

    And let's all remember ... my words may be ignored ... I may not be considered worthy for being given any serious thought to my words ... but let's not forget Lord Krishna's words .... hurting anyone's sentiments is hurting the God in the heart of everyone. How are we going to save ourselves from our own Karma ?

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    I understand what you're saying and of course it seems like my posts are filled with casteist ideas. I am in no way like that. What I mean is, I firmly believe in doing things fervently and devoutly.

    I am just very skeptical of foreigners who say they are interested in Hinduism because of my personal experiences. Not once, not twice, but several times during my adolescence and young adulthood, I have encountered these mlecchas who say, "Oh, you're Hindu! I love the "karma" and the "dharma". Tell me more!" I spent time, patiently, because I thought they were genuinely interested. Soon, they would turn around and say things like, "Have you heard of jesus christ?" "There is no hope without jesus!" And I've even been told, when I was still in high school, "Krishna is dead but "jesus is alive"!" I was about break every tooth of that lady but fear of being kicked out of school and legal problems, kept me from doing it. Repeated stabs in the heart by these hypocrites is what has made me extremely wary; some would say paranoid.

    And the funny thing is, after high school, many of these 'christians' were busy fornicating, drinking alcohol, and doing illicit drugs. naturally I thought I was 'better' than them! I, to this day, don't drink, don't smoke, am strictly vegetarian, celibate, and have never done illicit drugs of any kind. I thought these things were important! Lifestyle is important! Self-discipline is important! If someone who has done drugs and all sorts of things, like the beatles band for example, suddenly becomes interested in Hinduism, you would just call them "Brahmins"? Why? Just because they show 'interest'? Upbringing, birth, lineage, and lifestyle matter right? Otherwise, the whole idea of caste system would be a joke!

    I have never denigrated anyone based on caste in India. Many friends of mine in India are Indian "christians" and non-Brahmins. I've actually had only two "Brahmin" friends of my age. Our caretaker is a "pariah" but we treat him with dignity. He knows his place, we know ours. It is in harmony that is how Indian/Hindu society works. When these foreigners come into the picture, it becomes chaotic because they think they can just slide in to the top of the social/traditional ladder and we very well know they can't. Thus, only conflict arises. So there are two choices; 1.) bend the rules and accommodate like you do or 2.) keep tradition and let them know the truth.

    I think it is best to let the gurus decide what to do.

    And, Hinduism and Hindu society has never looked for or needed converts. If one is on a spiritual quest to find the TRUTH, then there is no need for 'conversion'. And nobody is stopping them. When these people, who are unsure of themselves, their lifestyles and traditions, want to convert to Hinduism, they bring with them their vAsanAs and ideas from their upbringing about "how things should work". They impose them on Hindus and Hindu society and due to the meek nature of Hindus, many oblige. This in turn breaks down tradition and again is cause for disturbance.

    According to scriptures, birth is not accidental and you know this. yet, I am not sure why you and other liberal Hindus are so keen on hiding that fact to appease these people? Kindness is great Devotee, but being disingenuous is something else.

    Namaskar.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •