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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

  1. #11
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by mukunda20 View Post
    translation
    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."
    I have little to contribute to this string, but thought to add the following from a past post:

    Kṛṣṇa also tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.
    One must ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

    1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

    3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
    4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

    5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
    6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

    Note that the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
    I will assume there is a general knowledge of brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s and what they do, their roles in society and the like.

    pranams
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Yajvanji and everyone,
    thanks for valuable information.
    One interesting point to note here is that before Sri Krishna introduces how He has created the Varnas based on nature of Gunas and Karma(chapter 4), He indicates that the ultimate goal of anyone is to transcend above the three Gunas itself in the sloka of Chapter 2- verse 45

    trai-gunya-visaya veda
    nistraigunyo bhavarjuna
    nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho
    niryoga-ksema atmavan
    trai-gunya--pertaining to the three modes of material nature; visayah--on the subject matter; vedah--Vedic literatures; nistraigunyah--in a pure state of spiritual existence; bhava--be; arjuna--O Arjuna; nirdvandvah--free from the pains of opposites; nitya-sattva-sthah--ever remaining in sattva (goodness); niryoga-ksemah--free from (the thought of) acquisition and preservation; atma-van--established in the self.

    It feels very simple while listening to Sri Krishna explaining it.

    Best Regards,
    mukunda


  3. #13
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Hello folks,

    It is indeed interesting to see people get animated during a discussion on Varna. Up until about 50 or 60 years ago, not many people doubted scriptural basis for birth-based varna. However, with changing social mores and caste discrimination being increasingly equated to bigotry and backwardness, there is a concerted effort to find support from scriptures that Varna, as originally designed and practiced, was not birth based but only based on character and work. But, at the same time, Brahmins still continue to routinely proclaim birth-based lineage going all the way back to the Vedic sages.

    I am now going to try and show that for all intents and purposes, Varna in both practice and scriptural theory, is birth based. Before I begin, a caveat is probably in order. As far as the extent to which actual facts can be gleaned from rigorous scientific inquiry, Varna and caste has not remained strictly insular. There is not a whole lot of genetic deviation among the various castes. The implication of whatever genetic differences and/or similarities discovered among the different castes, and among the populations from other regions of the world, is not clear cut. Leaving these aside, I would like to present evidence from Hindu scripture that the Varna system is a birth-based system, even during the Vedic times.

    For the purpose of this presentation I will use evidence from Vedas, Ithihasas, and Smrithees. Specifically, I will present textual evidence from Rg Veda, Chandogya Upanishad, Srimat BG, Ramayana, Mahabharata, and actual practice among the Brahmin orthodoxy such as Brahminical religious institutions such as Shankara matam.

    In this first post I am going to discuss Srimat BG. I will follow this up with more posts presenting evidence from other sources.

    People who wish to argue that Varna is not birth based often cite selected verses here and there, in isolation, that do not refer to birth, and rest their case. An example of this tactic is to cite verse 4.13 where Lord Sri Krishna says the four varnas are his creation based on guna and karma.

    But, even this verse does not say that varna is determined without any consideration to the biological birth status. Lord Sri Krishnas declaration being the creator of the four varnas is not inconsistent with a birth-based varna system. Similarly, the claim that guna and karma determine ones varna is also not inconsistent with a birth-based varna system. Since Lord Sri Krishna does not mention birth in this verse leaves whether varna is birth based or not is at best ambiguous. Therefore, one cannot simply cite this verse to conclusively claim it is not birth based.

    The same ambiguity is present in the verses from Chapter 18. These verses only describe the gunas and karmas of the four varnas. But, strangely enough, these verses also refer to the gunas of the four varnas as स्वभावजम् (svabhAvajam). This means these gunas are natural to the individuals. So, one can deduce they are born with these svabahavas. Yet, one can claim varna may be determined at birth, but not by the varna of the parents. But at the very least we can conclude that there is nothing here that says anyone can adopt a varna and follow its karma, these are characteristics that appear naturally to the four varnas.

    So, verses 4.13 and the verses of chapter 18, do not preclude a birth-based varna system.

    Now, let us turn to verses 9.32 and 9.33. In these two verses Lord Sri Krishna is actually giving a positive message that everyone is eligible for his grace. That is good. But in the process of giving this positive message Lord Sri Krishna classifies people into two groups, one is people with birth resulting from papa and the second is people with birth resulting from punya. In the papa group are women, vaishya and Shudra. The punya group are the brahamanas and kshathriyas with bhakti. Lord Sri Krishna used the term papayoni for the furst group, which cannot mean anything other than by birth.

    Also, all three orthodox commentators, namely, Shankara, Ramanuja, and Madhwa, have interpreted these two verses to mean women, vaishya and shudra birth result from papa. Here, there is no ambiguity, Lord Sri Krishna himself has clarified in these two verses that varna is birth based, just as much as gender is birth based.

    Another interesting verse in this context is 3.35 in which Lord Sri Krishna puts down pursuing only svadarma even if performed improperly, than paradarma done well. In practical terms, svadarma and paradarma will be determined only by birth.

    Turning to chapter 1, Arjuna describes how varna mixing will take place, and what the consequences will be of that, in verses 1.40 to 1.44. He says Varna mixing takes place when the women lose their sanctity. When this happens, Arjuna declares, jAti Darma perishes. Now, one might object that it is Arjuna who is saying this, not Lord Sri Krishna. Is this all you have to prove Varna is not based on birth, if Arjuna says it is not valid? Well, actually, Arjuna himself says he is not just making all this up, but this is what he has heard from the clan elders. So, this must have been widely held belief and practice at the time of Mahabarata.

    In summary, in 4.13 Sri Krishna says he created the four varnas according to guna and karma, and in the verses from chapter 18 he describes the svabhava of the four varnas, and in the verses 9.32 and 9.33 he clearly declares the four varna manifest through birth. A brahmana is a brahmana if he is born into the brahmana varna, exhibit the brahmana gunas, and performs the brahamana karmas. Same with the other three varnas. All one can argue is birth alone does not result in a given varna, but birth is a necessary condition. This is what Yudishtra states to the Yaksha.

    Cheers!

  4. #14

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Hello folks,

    It is indeed interesting to see people get animated during a discussion on Varna. Up until about 50 or 60 years ago, not many people doubted scriptural basis for birth-based varna. However, with changing social mores and caste discrimination being increasingly equated to bigotry and backwardness, there is a concerted effort to find support from scriptures that Varna, as originally designed and practiced, was not birth based but only based on character and work. But, at the same time, Brahmins still continue to routinely proclaim birth-based lineage going all the way back to the Vedic sages.

    I am now going to try and show that for all intents and purposes, Varna in both practice and scriptural theory, is birth based.
    You are correct. Sri Sri Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi confirms here (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm) that varna is birth based and cannot be based on qualities. He has given a logical view why it is so.

    But you are wrong on Sri Ramanuja. He says that varna is based on qualities of the person (http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/04/30/stories/2004043001390600.htm). Also Sri Madhva says that varnas are based on the qualities of the soul and not by birth (http://bellurramki18.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/sri-madhvacharya-incarnation-of-mukhya-praana/).

    So your claim that in recent times >>there is a concerted effort to find support from scriptures that Varna, as originally designed and practiced, was not birth based but only based on character and work.>> is incorrect.

  5. #15
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Thanks Vivendi for your good post !

    However, it may not satisfy some souls here who have this strategy in mind :

    a) First decide what you strongly feel is correct --- like Lord Krishna supports Varna by birth theory
    b) Disregard or downplay which is not in favour of what you are going to prove (which you have already decided) and manipulate by supplying your own arguments --- like all verses spoken by Lord Krishna nowhere suggests any support to varna by birth theory ---- but who can stop you from supplying some extended arguments etc. & prove what you have in your mind ??

    Again the tactics used here is : If it doesn't deny something then it must be supporting !! This is called great art of manipulation !!

    Again in BG verses 9.32 or 9.33 ... where does Lord Krishna say that varna is by birth ?? But then people are quoting this as a great support !!

    The reality is ---- You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #16
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Hello folks,

    In summary, in 4.13 Sri Krishna says he created the four varnas according to guna and karma, and in the verses from chapter 18 he describes the svabhava of the four varnas, and in the verses 9.32 and 9.33 he clearly declares the four varna manifest through birth. A brahmana is a brahmana if he is born into the brahmana varna, exhibit the brahmana gunas, and performs the brahamana karmas. Same with the other three varnas. All one can argue is birth alone does not result in a given varna, but birth is a necessary condition. This is what Yudishtra states to the Yaksha.

    Cheers!
    Namaste Shri Nara,

    I wish to point out a few things as I understand.

    I think that Birth in a particular environment is not a necessary condition but is primarily a result. In Brahadaraynaka U., Yajnavalkya takes another sage aside and discusses certain things in private. What they finally disclose is that karma karma karma.

    When Shri Krishna says: 'I am the author of chatur varna' or the Rig Veda verse wherein the caste divisions are shown as Purusha's body, to me it is pointer that all castes (or actually varna-inherent colour) has a single source and that single source is worthy of worship. Second, Shri Krishna also says that "I ensure birth in a favouable kula for those who abide in dharma (approximate paraphrasing). Shri Krishna also talks of yogi who sees only sameness. Manisha Panchikam teaches of sameness. On the other hand, there is example how ekalvya was removed from the scene for not being a khatriya.

    It is a cyclical event. Birth gives an environment for certain path, karma further ripens the future proclivity and it goes on. Thus birth does surely indicate the past propensities as well as effect pf past work. Taking a holistic view, there is no cause for grudge nor is there any cause to feel superior. If I had acquired expertise of leading a big Industrial house, then possibly I would have had a birth that would be conducive for that purpose. The varna division is general -- Thinkers-Artists-Teachers, Leaders-Warriors, Business People, and common men who have to support. There is no discrimination in this when one sees the big picture.

    Lastly, I will re-iterate that holding a grudge, feeling superior or inferior, and inciting unrest -- all are indicative of deficient understanding. Actually it is for the individual to keep himself OK.

    These are my opinions only.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 25 March 2010 at 04:24 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #17
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Just my two cents...

    Jati is most of the time taken same as Varna which is not true in my opinion. Jati is what you get in to or acquire by birth and not Varna. Varna is classification of 'Soul' based on the influence of the three fold qualities of Sattva, raja and Tamo and this is what Lord Krshna says He created. If this understanding is not taken serious, Lord Krshna's word will be very confusing and meaningless. Also, we will not have any shastraic meaning to demonic souls getting birth in to Brahmical parents and vice versa. SvaDharma is foolishly equated as JatiDharma by neos for their selfish motives of protecting Vedic life to only few groups of people and it is very much against the vedic dharma where everyone is suppose to follow the Dharma. SvaDharma is VarnaDharma and we can state numerous examples of great Rshis and MahaJanas who are not born in to Brahminical Jati but belong to Brahamana varna and also examples for the opposite.

    Its all dishonesty and God is only for me and Veda are my ancestors property is the root cause of this fallen faith of Varna by birth. If Jati is translated as Caste of the body, Varana should be translated as caste of the Soul. Improper use of the english word "caste" to equate both soul and body as same is only ignorance and anything built on top of this ignorance is only selfish idiotic.

  8. #18

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I think that Birth in a particular environment is not a necessary condition but is primarily a result. In Brahadaraynaka U., Yajnavalkya takes another sage aside and discusses certain things in private. What they finally disclose is that karma karma karma.

    When Shri Krishna says: 'I am the author of chatur varna' or the Rig Veda verse wherein the caste divisions are shown as Purusha's body, to me it is pointer that all castes (or actually varna-inherent colour) has a single source and that single source is worthy of worship. Second, Shri Krishna also says that "I ensure birth in a favouable kula for those who abide in dharma (approximate paraphrasing). Shri Krishna also talks of yogi who sees only sameness. Manisha Panchikam teaches of sameness. On the other hand, there is example how ekalvya was removed from the scene for not being a khatriya.

    It is a cyclical event. Birth gives an environment for certain path, karma further ripens the future proclivity and it goes on. Thus birth does surely indicate the past propensities as well as effect pf past work. Taking a holistic view, there is no cause for grudge nor is there any cause to feel superior. If I had acquired expertise of leading a big Industrial house, then possibly I would have had a birth that would be conducive for that purpose. The varna division is general -- Thinkers-Artists-Teachers, Leaders-Warriors, Business People, and common men who have to support. There is no discrimination in this when one sees the big picture.

    Lastly, I will re-iterate that holding a grudge, feeling superior or inferior, and inciting unrest -- all are indicative of deficient understanding. Actually it is for the individual to keep himself OK.

    These are my opinions only.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    I think this one was one of the best

    Perhaps the automatic karma system itself is the dharma system in the light of the modern world ?

    Identifying what is the cause and what is the effect, and distinguishing that from the goodness involved in the stronger sections helping the weaker sections, also setting an example, gives rise to no oppressions. This also feeds back into the cause and effect karma cycle.

    And, occupation being passed down from great-grandpa to great-grandson worked really well in the days it did, to re-enforce this. It was basically a good fit for civilization in those days. However, we are now way into Kali Yuga.

    Perhaps , despite the known and expected effects of Kali Yuga, this is really a No-OP for humans. Therein lies the beauty of Brahman like a lotus in swamp.

    i.e. humans need not do anything, like political interference. We need equal access for all , not quotas.
    If all humans just abide by dharma and samskAr , prakrti will take care of the rest.
    And dharma includes being compassionate.

    The Lord is accessible to all and only wants Love of the individual - this means Universal Love.

    I think , the issue of sAmAjic access for all, and access to visit temple or kirtan and spiritual education for all, was the good reform of the bhakti movement, and has nothing to do with the home samskAr and dharma, varNa and jAti of individuals and families which definitely have their place in the scheme of things. Also, this results in everyone benefiting by trying to be better and better individuals thus automatically working on their guNa and karma.

    BG 6.40: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Son of Pṛthā, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil.

    BG 6.41: The unsuccessful yogī, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.

    BG 6.42: Or [if unsuccessful after long practice of yoga] he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Certainly, such a birth is rare in this world.



    Engaging in auspicious activity seems to be the Universal key.

    Jai Shri KRSNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 26 March 2010 at 01:09 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Grames,

    Thanks for your nice post !

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    ;
    Jati is most of the time taken same as Varna which is not true in my opinion. Jati is what you get in to or acquire by birth and not Varna. Varna is classification of 'Soul' based on the influence of the three fold qualities of Sattva, raja and Tamo and this is what Lord Krshna says He created.
    Jati word has come from "Ja" i.e. birth. So, one's "jati" is decided by his/her birth. This birth to a certain parents, kula, place & conditions etc. are certainly influenced by his past karma which is what Lord Krishna says in BG 6.41 and 6.42.

    If this understanding is not taken serious, Lord Krshna's word will be very confusing and meaningless. Also, we will not have any shastraic meaning to demonic souls getting birth in to Brahmical parents and vice versa.
    Exactly ! Whatever Shastras say should be match what is happening in the real world otherwise the Shastras would lose their authenticity. If we accept the varnas are decided once for all at the time of birth .... then the BG verse 18.41 cannot stand the test of the real world. Lord Krishna clearly says that the Karmas (this karma is not the past karma but is used in the sense of Dharma i.e. meaning what the people are supposed to do) of the four varnas are decided based on their naturally acquired gunas. It means that every person born in a certain varna must be born with certain gunas. Our experience tells us very clearly that the gunas acquired by a person doesn't depend upon in which caste he is born.

    SvaDharma is foolishly equated as JatiDharma by neos for their selfish motives of protecting Vedic life to only few groups of people and it is very much against the vedic dharma where everyone is suppose to follow the Dharma. SvaDharma is VarnaDharma and we can state numerous examples of great Rshis and MahaJanas who are not born in to Brahminical Jati but belong to Brahamana varna also examples for the opposite.
    You are right.

    Its all dishonesty and God is only for me and Veda are my ancestors property is the root cause of this fallen faith of Varna by birth. If Jati is translated as Caste of the body, Varana should be translated as caste of the Soul. Improper use of the english word "caste" to equate both soul and body as same is only ignorance and anything built on top of this ignorance is only selfish idiotic.
    Yes. It is due to the selfish attitude of certain group of people in the past who manipulated our shastras like Manusmriti to equate varnas with caste by birth.

    If this is really true, then how can we explain Vajrashoochika Upanishad which rejects the idea of varna by birth theory in no uncertain terms ? What was the varna of the great Rishi Vedvyaas or Maharishi Parashar ... what was the castes/varnas of their mothers ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #20

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    J If Jati is translated as Caste of the body, Varana should be translated as caste of the Soul.
    Namaste

    Perhaps. That's very interesting , Gramesji.
    So, appearantly, in the 'olden days' , the caste of the body and caste of the soul fit together very well. But that was not the mandate given by shAstra ? As times changed, hanging on to this as a mandate is probably the error ?

    So, this means , the error in perception , as always, is not seperating or mixing up the material from the spiritual. ShAstra from socio-economic infrastructure , even if it was setup based on shAstra to begin with.

    Its no wonder that it feels complicated, but not once we find the error.

    What i liked about Atanuji's post is, that he points out that its a hand-in-hand chicken-and-egg phenomenon. GuNa cultivation and karma brings a particular birth, and birth provides an environment for future guNa karma.
    Nature and nurture, chicken and egg.


    So what now ? Nothing! We just do good and be good and prakrti takes care of the rest. Is it not so ?

    The Karma system is automatically the Dharma system.
    Let infrasturctures be. Let people be.
    Let material stay material and spiritual stay spiritual.

    This is how the shAstra, scriptures will apply , whether it is SatYug KaliYug or any other Genetic engineering or Singularity Yug.


    Jai Shri KRSNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 25 March 2010 at 02:03 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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