Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

[devotee]

Those who are interested, can refer to post No. 34 of this thread which makes it clear that "Varna by birth" theory has no support from Shruti (which is the highest authority for all Hindus) and many other scriptures.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...?t=5491&page=4 .

Vajrsashoochika Upanishad (which is Shruti) categorically states that Brahmanhood is not attained by birth alone.

OM

[MahaHrada]

The society based on Jati and Varna, though the classification is first of all based on birth never was rigid and without downward and upward mobility, and birth was not the only qualification just the natural primary clasification. Conduct and acts where and are of higher importance. Jati and Varna never was completly static and also the same rules were not applied everywhere by all alike. It is very easy to loose Brahmin status for a born Brahmin. He must spent effort maintaining it by showing good conduct:

"The boon giving Brahma, while he created all creatures, himself said that the distribution of human beings into the four orders dependent on birth is only for purposes of classification. The Brahmana who wishes to achieve his own good should always adhere to the path of righteousness. He should always be devoted to the study of the Vedas, but he should never derive the means of sustenance from such study."

Anusasana Parva, Section CXLIII

Good conduct can also cause upward mobility:

"Even a Sudra that has purified his soul by pure deeds and that has subjugated all his senses, deserves to be waited upon and served with reverence as a Brahmana.. This has been said by the Self-born Brahman Himself. When a pious nature and pious deeds are noticeable in even a Sudra, he should be held superior to a person of the three regenerate classes. Neither birth, nor the purificatory rites, nor learning, nor offspring, can be regarded as grounds for conferring upon one the regenerate status. Verily conduct is the only ground.

All Brahmanas in this world are Brahmanas in consequence of conduct. A Sudra, if he is established on good conduct, is regarded as possessed of the status of a Brahmana. The status of a Brahmana is equal wherever it exists. He, indeed, is a Brahmana in whom the status of Brahma exists; that condition which is bereft of attributes and which has no stain attached to it."

Anusasana Parva, Section CXLIII


But we should keep in mind that upward mobility is possible but rarely happens in real life, because overall humans tend to stick to the lifestyle and upbringing, and are satisfied when remaining within their own class and clan.

This is true for any society, whether it is professsing to be egalitarin and merit based, or based on birth and community.According to a sociological study i recently read people in Europe have very little upward class or caste mobility, ironically much less of it exists in Europe than in India despite all the claims of equality.

In the west very rarely you will see academics, or higher class people so much as to even interact with the working class, all the egalitarian ideas are only that: ideas , sweet lies, in reality no higher class people will marry or invite working class people privately, neither will working class people invite academics or higher class people in their home.

Varna and jati is a societal system in India and has very little impact on the spiritual path so i do not understand for what reason a westerner wants to feel he belongs to a varna, or tries to bash Indian society because Varna exists, probably the reason is some sort of greed and discontent with their natural state? Probably some people cannot stand the fact that there is something in this world they cannot buy, or they cannot own, no matter how hard they try? Lets say you have acquired a "Varna"? What will you do with it once you "own" it, when you don´t live in India and you are not part of a hindu family? One cannot become a bird and fly just by dressing up in feathers and run around flapping with the arms.

Kabir wrote:

candâ jhalkai yahi ghat mâhîn

The moon shines in my body, but my blind eyes cannot see it:
The moon is within me, and so is the sun.

The unstruck drum of Eternity is sounded within me; but my deaf ears cannot hear it.

So long as man clamours for the I and the Mine, his works are as naught:
When all love of the I and the Mine is dead, then the work of the Lord is done.

For work has no other aim than the getting of knowledge:
When that comes, then work is put away.

The flower blooms for the fruit: when the fruit comes, the flower withers.
The musk is in the deer, but it seeks it not within itself: it wanders in quest of grass.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM

Vannakkam Ganeshprasad:

This is true of westerners indeed. But it is not the average westerner who comes and seeks out HDF. I would guess only one in a hundred thousand westerners would find this place. Firstly, he or she has an interest of some sort or wouldn't have searched and found this site. By reading a bit, he may go away just because by reading, this place was not what he was looking for.

Still, as I said before, I am truly amazed that some that get here don't do enough reading. And I must say there have been a few 'ignorant' Indians come here too.

Aum Namasivaya

But then that above average person should not be perturbed by the use of the word malechha, only if the cap fits.

lets face it we are all, or at least I am ignorant or else I would not be stuck in this place called duhkhalayam asasvatam a place of miseries; and temporary.

If someone interest falters at first hurdle then he can not be very serious because we know to follow Dharma is not bed of roses, a true Guru will test the sisya�s resolve to the hilt.


TTA and some others do not mince their words, so what ? only good can come out of it, it is a reminder for us to become humble, our ego get bruised but then it is our ego we need to over come.

I live in a country where I am constantly reminded that I do not belong here, so should I quit because someone do not like me?

Aum Namasivaya
Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Devotee ji

There are many words in Sanskrit but it is not necessary that all are civil and we should we use them without discrimination.
OM

Who said we should not use our discrimination, are you suggesting I used that word without qualifying it?
Do you think our ancestors were wrong, to call those outside of Bharat barbarians malechha, did they not have a reason to do so?
　
Quote:
As for scripture here is what Lord Krishna says to Arjun
　

Does it talk of Malechha or does it apply to all without any discrimination on the basis of caste, race or region ?

of course it applies to all but by default it includes Malechha and since Darji was looking for proof I quoted it!
　
　

But it was the order of some great Dharma Gurus only which resulted in spread of Hinduism outside India by some of our great saints. One among them is Deathless Babaji who specifically told to his disciples that there were many real Truth Seekers outside India & it was the duty of Saints from India to go there & help them.
OM

Here we have a different take, I would love to see Hindu Dharma strive and become pristine to it’s glorious past. I am of firm belief that Dharma is not something to spread or to swell the numbers but it is something to imbibe in ones life, let us become a perfect example for others to follow or some one to inquire about.

but we should not want to just promote our institute for material benefit which is what it has become in the west, a big money spinning org. more often then not bringing disrepute the Hindu Dharma.

Krishna says one should approach a tatvadarsi who knows the truth, serve him and ask questions, instead we see Gurus springing from everywhere charging huge sums to unsuspecting disciples who themselves probably are looking for quick fix, instant nirvana and are parting with their money , hardly Hindu Dharma.

You don’t see Four Sankracharyas of today, going out to seek converts do you?

Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Pranam EM


But then that above average person should not be perturbed by the use of the word malechha, only if the cap fits.

lets face it we are all, or at least I am ignorant or else I would not be stuck in this place called duhkhalayam asasvatam a place of miseries; and temporary.

If someone interest falters at first hurdle then he can not be very serious because we know to follow Dharma is not bed of roses, a true Guru will test the sisya�s resolve to the hilt.


TTA and some others do not mince their words, so what ? only good can come out of it, it is a reminder for us to become humble, our ego get bruised but then it is our ego we need to over come.

I live in a country where I am constantly reminded that I do not belong here, so should I quit because someone do not like me?

Aum Namasivaya
Jai Shree Krishna

Vannakkam:

I totally agree.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


If we are talking varṇa from the Bhāgavad gītā, it seems to make sense to look to its parent book the Mahābhārata for some additional insights.

If we look to the śanti parva, section 297, parāśara-muni¹ is talking to King janaka ( as narrated by bhīṣma-ji to yudhiṣṭhira )
about various varṇa subject matter and says the following:
Listen to me child and and I will tell you what is the common duties of all 4 orders (varṇa-s). Compassion, abstention from injury,
heedfulness, giving to others what is due to them, śraddhā¹ in honor of the deceased ancestors, hospitality to guests, truthfulness,
subjugation of wrath, contentedness with one's own wives, purity, freedom from malice, knowledge of the Self and renunciation -
these duties O' king are common to all the orders.

I think this is quite insightful - the pursuit of the SELF by all orders, not to mention the other directives parāśara-muni offers.

Yet there is more... King Janaka asks a brilliant question - He says to parāśara-muni, O' great one is man stained by his acts or is
he stained by the order or class in which he is born?. A doubt has arisen in my mind, please expound this to me.
parāśara-muni says both acts and birth are sources of demerit. Yet there is more to this and we can take this up on the next post.

praṇām

words

• parāśara was the father of veda vyāsa वेद व्यास, the one who compiled the veda-s, or Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana ;
  parāśara is a renouned ṛṣi found in the ṛg veda, and is also the author of the Bṛhat Parāśara Horāśāstra ( science of jyotiṣh)
• bhīṣma भीष्म - terrible, efferent , fearful; bhīṣma's (beesh-mah) other names are Devavrata, Gangadatta and Dyu. He is one of the 8 Vasus, the celestials. How did he come to this earth and what was the circumstances? More can be found at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1882
• śraddhā - faith , respect , reverence ; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness , belief

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

parāśara-muni says both acts and birth are sources of demerit

Then he ( parāśara-ji ) says listen to their difference. The man who, though stained by birth yet does not commit sin,
he abstains from sin while acting; if however a person of superior birth pursues censurable acts, such acts stain him (her). Hence of the 2, acts stain a man more then birth.

Parāśara-muni in the previous paragraph says, brāhmaṇa-s learned in the veda-s regard a virtuous sudra as an equal to
a brāhmaṇa himself. I myself says parāśara-ji look upon a virtuous sudra as the effulgent viṣṇu, the foremost one of all the worlds.

What does this tell me? It is one's choice of actions in this life that are of critical import. One may be born into a noble family, and
this comes from past actions, but now one is responsible in this life for the sections that are made.
Is that person still a brāhmaṇa if despicable deeds are part of his actions? Is the person still a sudra who does righteous actions day-in and day-out? These ideas can be found in the Mahābhārata.

praṇām

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ

What does this tell me? It is one's choice of actions in this life that are of critical import. One may be born into a noble family, and
this comes from past actions, but now one is responsible in this life for the sections that are made.

Is that person still a brāhmaṇa if despicable deeds are part of his actions? Is the person still a sudra who does righteous actions day-in and day-out? These ideas can be found in the Mahābhārata.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji

Thanks for two good posts above. As questions and not as answers, I wish to put the following for consideration of meditative HDFites:

1. Whether time (past and future) flows from the present or whether these flow from the past? (IMO, actually the past and history etc. have no basis without the Self who is present).

2. Whether the categories create Self or the categories are because of the Self?

Om namah Shivaya

[kd gupta]

Illustrating the name of Janakji is quite right about Varna system . Rishi Dhaumya also referred janak for teaching gita to yudhishter .Krsn says janakadayah . Goswamiji writes that janak says to his daughter Sita�Putri pavitra kiye KUL dou. Here Kuldharmah as stated by Arjun is quite important to discuss varna as varna is related to kul and kul is gunkarm vibhagyoh . If we take rigveda it categorizes , five varna plus one yajna doer and second yajna knower say rishi . Here it is to be noticed that the female has been kept beyond and above all varnas . Krsn says about narah and not for nari . Also stribhih narah , means male and female . In the current situation a female can drag swami from Brahmin varna to nishad and also KHAJOOR from kshatriya varna to nishad varna . May be gayatri mata or padmavati mata every female god is keeping the Hindus one . Of course naming more matas is beyond shashtram pramanam .

[TatTvamAsi]

Interesting, indeed. Are you reading minds ?

Tat Tvam Asi, you would be kind to keep a civil tone and avoid baseless and discriminatory ad hominem. Else I am afraid that it will be the end of the story.

Philippe

It is interesting to see that you didn't understand my post at all. The reason I put "you" in quotes is to emphasize INDIVIDUALITY. The exact reason you took that as ad hominem is why I think westerners should stay away from Sanatana Dharma.

"End of the story?" What story? Or is that a poorly worded threat?