Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

[Nara]

Hello folks, Greetings!

Before I move to the next post on scriptural basis for birth based varna let me try to answer some of the reactions to my first post.

First, all of us come to a discussion forum with a POV. We need to make our case with proper evidence and logic. Simply asserting you are wrong won’t do, show me the evidence. Vivendi, what if I just say you are wrong, where will we be? Let us not make this into a food fight.

vivendi, you have given a newspaper article praising Bhagavat Ramanuja. I have no problem with that. He was a great reformer, he wanted people of all varna to be treated with respect, and I love him with all my heart for that, but even for him Varna was birth based. He was told it was so by many including a Vaishya he respected dearly. In any case, let me just give you the original text from Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhashya for verse #9.32 and 9.33.

स्त्रियो वैश्याः शूद्राः च पापयोनयः आपि मां व्यापाश्रित्य परां जतिं यान्ति ।
किं पुनः पुण्ययोनयो ब्राह्मणाः राजर्ष्यः च मद्भ्क्तिम्आश्रिताः । अतः त्वं राजर्षिः अस्थिरं तापत्रयाभिहततया असुखं च इमं लोकं प्राप्य वर्तमानो मां भजस्व ॥

Rough translation: Women, Vaishya, and Shudra are of papa birth (papayonayaha), even they can reach the ultimate state by surrendering to me. What is more, Brahmanas and Rajarishees are of birth resulting from punya (puNya yonayaha) and are firmly devoted bhaktas. Therefore, you being a raja rishi, have come to me to escape this unhappy and changing world affected by the three-fold afflictions.

I don’t have direct quotes from Madwacharya bhashyam, but I know Dwaitam asserts varna not just for the body, but for the soul as well.

Jati is for body, varna is for soul, says grames. Only followers of Madwacharya assign varna to soul. Other orthodox schools hold jivas to be all equal, free of gender or varna. Leaving that aside, Arjuna states in Chapter 1, on the authority of clan elders, that mixing of varna will result in the annihilation of jAti darma. He uses the two terms, varna and jati, interchangeably. If varna is only for soul, then how would varna sankra come about? If Varna and jati are completely different, why did the clan elders tell Arjuna, as Arjuna claims, that Varna sankara will result in the destruction of Jati darma? What is the connection?

Devotee, I am going to answer your objections without making any comment about you or your motives or anything like that. I ask you to show me the same courtesy, nothing more, and nothing less.

Nothing in verses 4.13, 18.40-45, 3.35, rejects the possibility that varna is birth based. They do not talk about birth at all, so no claim can be made one way or another. I have explained this in detail in my first post. If you think those verses preclude any possibility for birth to play a role in one's varna, show the evidence and logic of that view.

In 9.32 and 9.33, Lord Sri Krishna specifically says women, vaishya, and shudra are of sinful birth. He uses the term “papa yoni”. Yoni is what? It refers to source, origin, decent, or female reproductive organ. How can this not be related to birth? All the three great acharyas, and one Ramakrishna Mutt publication give this interpretation only. I am just presenting what they are saying. If you think I am just seeing what I want to see and hear, then these great stalwarts are also doing the same thing.

Now it is time for you to respond without epithets, don’t just say I am this or I am that, put up your best evidence and logic.

Cheers!

[devotee]

Dear Mr Nara,

In any case, let me just give you the original text from Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhashya for verse #9.32 and 9.33.

स्त्रियो वैश्याः शूद्राः च पापयोनयः आपि मां व्यापाश्रित्य परां जतिं यान्ति ।
किं पुनः पुण्ययोनयो ब्राह्मणाः राजर्ष्यः च मद्भ्क्तिम्आश्रिताः । अतः त्वं राजर्षिः अस्थिरं तापत्रयाभिहततया असुखं च इमं लोकं प्राप्य वर्तमानो मां भजस्व ॥

[INDENT]Rough translation: Women, Vaishya, and Shudra are of papa birth (papayonayaha), even they can reach the ultimate state by surrendering to me. What is more, Brahmanas and Rajarishees are of birth resulting from punya (puNya yonayaha) and are firmly devoted bhaktas. Therefore, you being a raja rishi, have come to me to escape this unhappy and changing world affected by the three-fold afflictions.

May I ask, who has done this "rough" translation ? Please read the sanskrit text of Ramanuja Gita Bhasya quoted by you. It says, "Stri, vaishyah, Shudra cha paapyonyah api" ====> this should be translated as women, vaishya, Shudras and Paapyonih & not as paayonih e.g. women, vaishyas & Shudras. So I am curious to know where you got this "rough translation from !

Nothing in verses 4.13, 18.40-45, 3.35, rejects the possibility that varna is birth based. They do not talk about birth at all, so no claim can be made one way or another. I have explained this in detail in my first post. If you think those verses preclude any possibility for birth to play a role in one's varna, show the evidence and logic of that view.

If someone doesn't say anything against Caste system, that means he supports caste system ? What sort of a logic is this ? I am not saying of this possibility or that possibility. Why take support of these verses when they don't say anything in support of Varna by birth system ?

In 9.32 and 9.33, Lord Sri Krishna specifically says women, vaishya, and shudra are of sinful birth.

Please read the verse carefully. 9.32 doesn't say specifically that women, vaishyas and Shudras are paayonis. It mentions paapyonis (paapyonyah), women, vaishyas and the shudras. It is nothing more than an extrapolation that paapyoni in the above verse is used for women, vaishyas and Shudras. Please read the verse & try explaining to me where it states "paapyonyah i.e. women, vaishyas & shudras" ?? There is no word there for "i.e." or "e.g." in that verse.

Yes, some great achaaryas did translate this verse in this manner, I agree. But they belonged to an era where it might be difficult to see one's jaati different from one's varna .... so that doesn't bother me. However, I am surprised that a knowledgeable person like you wants to accept this ... why ?

He uses the term “papa yoni”. Yoni is what? It refers to source, origin, decent, or female reproductive organ. How can this not be related to birth? All the three great acharyas, and one Ramakrishna Mutt publication give this interpretation only. I am just presenting what they are saying. If you think I am just seeing what I want to see and hear, then these great stalwarts are also doing the same thing.

You claim that you know Sanskrit. Why are you trying to take shelter under someone else's translation ? As I told in the above para, please translate on your own & see. When it comes to Saguna Brahman then you don't accept what the achaaryas say & when it comes to bashing up Hindu Dharma for Varna system, you start taking shelter under their translations ??

So, am I wrong in concluding that you are trying to find out one reason or the other to bash up Hindu Dharma ?

OM

[atanu]

Hello folks, Greetings!


I don’t have direct quotes from Madwacharya bhashyam, but I know Dwaitam asserts varna not just for the body, but for the soul as well.

Jati is for body, varna is for soul, says grames. Only followers of Madwacharya assign varna to soul. Other orthodox schools hold jivas to be all equal, free of gender or varna. Leaving that aside, Arjuna states in Chapter 1, on the authority of clan elders, that mixing of varna will result in the annihilation of jAti darma. He uses the two terms, varna and jati, interchangeably. If varna is only for soul, then how would varna sankra come about? If Varna and jati are completely different, why did the clan elders tell Arjuna, as Arjuna claims, that Varna sankara will result in the destruction of Jati darma? What is the connection?

Cheers!

Namaste Shri Nara and Devotee

jAti birth , production, fixed by birth ; position assigned by birth , rank , caste , family , race , lineage etc.


varNa a covering , cloak , mantle ; a cover , lid ; outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape , colour

There is definite difference between varNa and jAti; the former being the cause and the latter being the result. Again, varNa depends on karma in a particular station (jAti).

I also think that the statement of Shri Nara shown in blue above has a confusion of jiva and jivAtman. Jiva, I think, is Purusha (jivAtman) conditioned in a particular way by prakriti. In other words, varna is prakritic veiling of jivAtman by different colours that differentiates jivAtman, into many jivas. If jiva-s were all same, sexless and equal, then how we all are different?

In respect of Gita verse 9.32, however, I must agree that most traditional and modern translators seem to say what Shri Nara is saying. But that does not prove exact equivalence of jAti and varNa. On the contrary, it appears to say that accrued karma determines ambience of future birth.

Om Namah Shivaya

[vivendi]

Pranams Nara, thanks. I was not aware of this interpretation. Let me check with a SV scholar and perhaps get back to you if anything is different. I find it difficult to accept your derivation of Shri Ramanuja in that if he said all jivas are equal, then he should not be interpreting the verses to suggest that women, vaishyas and shudras are papa yonah aka sinful birth.

[Nara]

devotee,

May I ask, who has done this "rough" translation ?

The translation is mine. Since it is mine, I cannot rest on it as proof positive, I agree. But you translated only the first verse, not the the entire passage. In his commentary for the second verse Ramanuja leaves no room for alternative translations. He states clearly that Brahmana and Rajrishi births are punya yonayaha.

Another factor that you are ignoring is the fact that Lord Sri Krishna classifies people into two groups, (i) women, vaishya who are papayonees in my opinion and women, vaishya and papayonees per yours, and (ii) the brahamna and kshatriya, and bhathas who are punya yonees. The word yoni here connects varna to birth.

Your argument that those acharyas lived in a different era and we now need to reinterpret these verses only goes to strengthen what I have been saying. Even otherwise, we are engaged in understanding varna as presented in Hindu scriptures, not how it should be understood in our times. In our times we must annihilate varna and caste altogether, but that is a different topic for a different thread.

If someone doesn't say anything against Caste system, that means he supports caste system ? What sort of a logic is this ?

That would be illogical indeed, but that is not what I am saying, nor do the verses. Please see below.

..... Why take support of these verses when they don't say anything in support of Varna by birth system ?

I am not taking support from these verses at all. On the contrary this verse is usually cited in favor of the claim that varna is not birth based. The originator of this thread cited this verse. All I am saying is these verses do not lend support to either position, mine or yours, that is all.

....So, am I wrong in concluding that you are trying to find out one reason or the other to bash up Hindu Dharma ?

Yes devotee, you are wrong. I am not trying to bash anything or anyone up. I think Varna system is a blot on Hinduism. An honest appraisal of it and making amends will only strengthen Hinduism. In the absence of such forthright reckoning, it will continue to be burdened by it.

Cheers!

[Nara]

atanu, greetings!

...There is definite difference between varNa and jAti;

They may be different, but are related. There are many jatis within each varna. In this respect, many orthodox people use jAti and varna interchangeably.

...If jiva-s were all same, sexless and equal, then how we all are different?

atanu, this is a tangential issue, not relevant to the main point of discussion. So I would like to keep this brief with no further exchanges. If you would like a more elaborate discussion we can probably have one elsewhere.

My point was limited to pointing out that except Madhwacharya followers, the others hold that jivas or jivathaman or whatever terminology we may use, is devoid of varna.

Cheers!

[TatTvamAsi]

The reality is ---- You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

OM

Namaste Devotee,

What you have stated is absolutely brilliant! That is very much the case indeed.

However, regarding varnA, as clearly stated in the article of Shankaracharya (Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Sankara Mutt) in Vivendi's post, one has to be clear about what varnA is, its original purpose, and how it is applied in the modern day. You know very well that today caste is being abused by everybody. This is clearly not the fault of the system right?

Why is there a doubt as to whether someone is born into a particular varnA? As GaneshPrasad stated, how can one, a Brahmin boy for example, have his upanayana at the age of 5 - 8 when his "guna" and "karma" are literally 'blank'? What is the meaning of upanayana anyway? If one's varnA is not based on birth, how can we determine what one's svAdharmA is? It cannot be constantly changing as likes, dislikes, tendencies, habits, and even character varies.

Like you stated in another post, just because one is in a particular varnA, it does NOT mean they have to be abusive to others. It has happened and that is bad, but to try to redefine the system or read into it in a way that will make it fit modern thinking is going too far isn't it?

Anyway, since we have already made up our minds, I suppose this is rather fruitless but at least the facts must be mentioned for everyone to see.

Namaskar.

[TatTvamAsi]

What was the varna of the great Rishi Vedvyaas or Maharishi Parashar ... what was the castes/varnas of their mothers ?

OM

Namaste Devotee,

A quick note on the statement above.

The Gotra always passes through the father and NOT the mother. Hence, both those examples are BRAHMINS because the fathers of both were rSis.

Namaskar.

[atanu]

atanu, greetings
They may be different, but are related. There are many jatis within each varna. In this respect, many orthodox people use jAti and varna interchangeably.

Namaste nara

That is wrong. Isn't it? To put manifestation before cause. To put matter before spirit. A spiritual teaching that there are different colourations in Purusha's body itself, from which flows the varna differences is mis-utilised as an exploitation tool and mis-utilised by the opposite group for retaliation. A woman is probably nothing but a man who in his last incarnation exploited or wronged a woman or lusted after a woman's form. A sudra again is probably a fallen Brahmin.

It is like this. Though all religions teach that God is one and mankind is one but their adherants seem not to agree to that and vouch for superiority of present form/name of own self or own group, argue, do violence, and kill in the name of differences. This is the play of evil tamasic-rajasic nature despite the presence of religious scripture that teaches the sattwik component. That is the tarattamma in nature. Scripture makes us aware of it.

atanu, this is a tangential issue, not relevant to the main point of discussion. So I would like to keep this brief with no further exchanges. If you would like a more elaborate discussion we can probably have one elsewhere
My point was limited to pointing out that except Madhwacharya followers, the others hold that jivas or jivathaman or whatever terminology we may use, is devoid of varna.

Actually, I feel that such differences of understanding are cause of problems and thus are vital. But I will go by your statement and will request you to kindly elaborate in simple terms the difference between jiva and jiva atman -- by pm or in a different thread.

No Indian Guru, traditional or modern, will use varna knowledge in terms of exploitation. It is the rajasic-tamasic nature that upholds differences as permanent and sanctions the exploitation etc.

I have received from a respected member the following teaching of Satya Sai baba.

"Of course, it is a fact that the system has veered from the proper path and taken to moving in wrong directions. This has been noted by many great men. But that cannot be sufficient reason to throw it overboard. For the reason that the leg is doing the work of the hand, and that the head is performing the function of the feet, it is not advisable to cut off hands and feet. Attempts have to be made to set things right, rather than destroying the very system itself.

The Varna system is not the cause of all this confusion and unrest. The fault lies more in the haphazard manner in which it has developed. It became a plaything in the hands of all types of people. So it lost its original symmetry and harmony. This system is essential, not merely for Bharath, but even for the world. In countries outside India this system is not absent. The name may be different, the working is the same. There also there are four classes—the Sikshaka Varga (Teachers), the Rakshaka Varga (Kings), the Vanig Varga (Businessmen) and the Sramika Varga (Servants). But in Bharath, the Vargas are decided by birth. In other parts of the world, they are decided by karma, the work each is engaged in. That is the distinction.

Now, among the Brahmins who have been honoured by being established in the very first cadre, many can be found who have left off the path and strayed into mean ways. So too, in the fourth Varna, the Sudras, many can be found who are moved by holy ideals, high spiritual aspirations, and who are striving to attain purity of mind as a means of realisation. Just because these things are possible, it is not proper to conclude that the Varna organisation of human society is useless.” (SSB, Gita Vahini)"

I mention that Sri Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati or Sri Ramana Maharshi do not speak any different. In fact Kanchi Paramacharya says, quoting Vyasdeva: sudra sadhuh, kali sadhuh.

In summary. We realise that varna categories in jagat are eternal and it is our interaction and karma in jagat which evolves/degrades the varna that covers the original transparent mind.

It is not a sanction to exploit a woman or a sudra, since that is the papa that will lead one to a so-called sudra birth. On the other hand, Shri Krishna teaches that simple devotion to God will free even such people who have so-called sinful birth.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Devotee,

What you have stated is absolutely brilliant! That is very much the case indeed.

However, regarding varnA, as clearly stated in the article of Shankaracharya (Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Sankara Mutt) in Vivendi's post, one has to be clear about what varnA is, its original purpose, and how it is applied in the modern day. You know very well that today caste is being abused by everybody. This is clearly not the fault of the system right?

Why is there a doubt as to whether someone is born into a particular varnA? As GaneshPrasad stated, how can one, a Brahmin boy for example, have his upanayana at the age of 5 - 8 when his "guna" and "karma" are literally 'blank'? What is the meaning of upanayana anyway? If one's varnA is not based on birth, how can we determine what one's svAdharmA is? It cannot be constantly changing as likes, dislikes, tendencies, habits, and even character varies.

Like you stated in another post, just because one is in a particular varnA, it does NOT mean they have to be abusive to others. It has happened and that is bad, but to try to redefine the system or read into it in a way that will make it fit modern thinking is going too far isn't it?

Anyway, since we have already made up our minds, I suppose this is rather fruitless but at least the facts must be mentioned for everyone to see.

Namaskar.

namaste TTA

Your writing is commendable here and it will not go waste. But IMO, this should be extended to the whole world, since the whole world is in Purusha.

In my opinion, the purpose of karma is to lighten the darkness of the veil called varNa that covers up the transparent sattwik mind.

Om namah Shivaya