Hello folks, Greetings!
Before I move to the next post on scriptural basis for birth based varna let me try to answer some of the reactions to my first post.
First, all of us come to a discussion forum with a POV. We need to make our case with proper evidence and logic. Simply asserting you are wrong won’t do, show me the evidence. Vivendi, what if I just say you are wrong, where will we be? Let us not make this into a food fight.
vivendi, you have given a newspaper article praising Bhagavat Ramanuja. I have no problem with that. He was a great reformer, he wanted people of all varna to be treated with respect, and I love him with all my heart for that, but even for him Varna was birth based. He was told it was so by many including a Vaishya he respected dearly. In any case, let me just give you the original text from Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhashya for verse #9.32 and 9.33. स्त्रियो वैश्याः शूद्राः च पापयोनयः आपि मां व्यापाश्रित्य परां जतिं यान्ति ।
किं पुनः पुण्ययोनयो ब्राह्मणाः राजर्ष्यः च मद्भ्क्तिम्आश्रिताः । अतः त्वं राजर्षिः अस्थिरं तापत्रयाभिहततया असुखं च इमं लोकं प्राप्य वर्तमानो मां भजस्व ॥
Rough translation: Women, Vaishya, and Shudra are of papa birth (papayonayaha), even they can reach the ultimate state by surrendering to me. What is more, Brahmanas and Rajarishees are of birth resulting from punya (puNya yonayaha) and are firmly devoted bhaktas. Therefore, you being a raja rishi, have come to me to escape this unhappy and changing world affected by the three-fold afflictions.
I don’t have direct quotes from Madwacharya bhashyam, but I know Dwaitam asserts varna not just for the body, but for the soul as well.
Jati is for body, varna is for soul, says grames. Only followers of Madwacharya assign varna to soul. Other orthodox schools hold jivas to be all equal, free of gender or varna. Leaving that aside, Arjuna states in Chapter 1, on the authority of clan elders, that mixing of varna will result in the annihilation of jAti darma. He uses the two terms, varna and jati, interchangeably. If varna is only for soul, then how would varna sankra come about? If Varna and jati are completely different, why did the clan elders tell Arjuna, as Arjuna claims, that Varna sankara will result in the destruction of Jati darma? What is the connection?
Devotee, I am going to answer your objections without making any comment about you or your motives or anything like that. I ask you to show me the same courtesy, nothing more, and nothing less.
Nothing in verses 4.13, 18.40-45, 3.35, rejects the possibility that varna is birth based. They do not talk about birth at all, so no claim can be made one way or another. I have explained this in detail in my first post. If you think those verses preclude any possibility for birth to play a role in one's varna, show the evidence and logic of that view.
In 9.32 and 9.33, Lord Sri Krishna specifically says women, vaishya, and shudra are of sinful birth. He uses the term “papa yoni”. Yoni is what? It refers to source, origin, decent, or female reproductive organ. How can this not be related to birth? All the three great acharyas, and one Ramakrishna Mutt publication give this interpretation only. I am just presenting what they are saying. If you think I am just seeing what I want to see and hear, then these great stalwarts are also doing the same thing.
Now it is time for you to respond without epithets, don’t just say I am this or I am that, put up your best evidence and logic.
Cheers!
Bookmarks