IS AGE AN ISSUE?!! WHY DISCOURAGE US YOUNGSTERS?

[sambya]

By Satay----
Basically, I'm just wondering where this sometimes disdainful atitude comes from. perhaops it is also a selfish fear of not having someone to take care of you in old age.

yes thats one of the causes for sure . another cause is 'missing out on a happy family with bahu , grandchildren etc' . third point is , being materialistic themselves , they cannot understand the cause of renunciating , which looks highly unfruitfull to them . another fine point is because they cannot boast of their son's acheivements(education or economic earning wise) in society .



actually its foolish to think that sons would care for you in old age . or for that matter of fact any human would do the same . if you r destined for comfortable end , you shall get it .

i have known a man -- an indian freedom fighter who passed away in 2008 , who had led one of the most inspirational lives . after being released from jail(under british rule) , when india became independent , he decided to lead a active life . he went to a distant village riddled with poverty stricken widows and helpless refugees from newly formed bangladesh .there he built his tiny one room shed with a few flowering plants around . then he purchased pulses and gifted them to the ladies saying " you make papads out of these and give me back . i shall package them and sell them in market . and the money recieved shall be given back to you . " the widows obeyed . slowly admirers gathered and a developemental trust was formed . today the village is a self sufficient model village for entire area . it has bio gas , solar facilities , honey cultivation , library , internet , etc etc etc . western charitable persons come in to make study on the remarkable success of this project . the person himself always wore white dhoti and kurta , kept a white flowing beard and stayed in the same tiny hut . but the area around his home was converted into a modest asharam with meditation rooms and stuff . he modelled his life on ideals or sri aurobindo , ramakrishna and vivekananda . people respected him as a saint.
then one day in 2006 he was suddenly missing . after a one year search he was found in the himalayas . when he was requested to return to his village he replied " i have done whatever i could for them . now the trust is secure and sound . i have no work there anymore . its time to quit with god's name " . in 2008 he passed away and innumerable people gathered to pay their last respects . people cried as if they had lost their own father or grandfather . people did their best to provide him with latest treatments and best seva in the end .
thats why i was saying " if you are destined for it , you shall get it " .

there are many parents with dozens of children who dont even care to look back at them !!

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

satay writes,

I can't be sure but let's think about this for a minute... If everyone wanted to renounce the world...what will happen to the society structure? There are after all four stages of life for a regular joe like me. I don't know about other parents but I can say at least for my father that he will not be happy if I decided to pull the 'buddha' on my family tonight.

I see your point. You also inform us that there are 4 stages of life so there is order in society and people can come and go as their evolution ( dharma) unfolds.

Now, let me offer another view - I would be with glee if every one renounced the world at least 1 time each day , but I would prefer 3 times a day.
What's this you talk of yajvan ? That would cause havoc in the world!

My thoughts are simple and are of the following notion. When one performs their sādhana (properly) they're renouncing the world , they are giving it up (yajña&#185 to the Supreme. They are giving of 'me' the limited for Being, unlimited.

So where is the renoucing? It comes with one's meditation ( or other upāya&#185 when one quite naturally experiences pratiprasava i.e. returning to the original state. At that point all is given up, all duality is consumed and left behind. One is in Union with pure awareness (Being).

It doesn't matter which station (āśaram - halting place; stage) one is in life , male or female, which vārna. All are welcomed to experience their true nature and core of their own being.

One needn't go to the forest unless compelled to do so.


praṇām

words

• yajña यज्ञ - act of worship or devotion , offering , oblation , sacrifice
• upāya उपाय - that by which one reachges thier aim; techniques, method, approach
• pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - return to the original state ; counter-order , suspension of a general prohibition in a particular case

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

A bit of research indicated to me that there are about 5 million renunciates in India, give or take a few hundred thousand. That is a ratio of about 1 in 200. 10% of that figure is female, so it is not just for the sons.

I believe, although I certainly have no true information or figures about Christianity, that devout Catholics or Eastern orthodox would consider it a great thing to become a Franciscan monk or a nun. Clearly that has gone awry in recent years.

They all had mothers from somewhere, and left and were blessed or not blessed by their families. There are the two basic kinds: the wanderers, and the ashramites, those who are in a monastic order of sort.

While I agree with Yajvanji that we renounce the world during daily sadhana, obviously for some, there is a 'bigger' calling. Now I think we can actually reduce the 5 million number by some figure, as surely there are some who renounce for all the wrong reasons, such as laziness etc.

Still there are hordes who are admired, and yet its from a distance. its kind of like saying its okay to be gay , and then when its your own son, its not. I find it ironic.

Thank you sambya for adding your explanations on some of the reasons for this as they all made sense to me. Perhaps someone on here personally knows a family whose son left for the non-grihastha path. Their viewpoint would be interesting. I know that the monkls of Kauai Aadheenam are still allowed to have contact with their families, although the families must visit the monastery, and all the monks refer to the Mothers as Amma. I'm sure they work on affectionate detachment, (letting go positively) from both sides.

I doubt that the Mothers of India have the same view of sons who depart for foreign lands to earn a better living, or maybe they do.

Aum Namasivaya

[smaranam]

Namaste

My personal view is that children should be exposed to spirituality alongside regular dhArmic teachings as per their interest in and grasp over the subject. Parents are the best judge.
Certainly RAmAyana-Mahabharat does not have to wait, as long as its at a level they can relate to or comprehend.
There are also, good 'sunday school programs' or sanskAr varga, with good curriculums, which start with coloring Deity pictures at age 5, to detailed Mahabharat stories , Bhagavad Gita and goes through all school years.

Some also send their children to gurukul-like schools such as "DnyAna Prabhodini" in Pune, India.

While parents certainly want to instill faith and dharmic values in their children from a very young age, they also know their children enough to tell where they are going ... or 'heading'.
Otherwise, despite the fact that Bhagavan Shri KRshna expects from us NishkAm karma (duties with no expectations), why do we have Adi Shankars, DnyAneshwars, RamaKrishna Paramhamsas, Chaitanya, 6 Goswamis, Meeras, .....

Why did the Gopis run into the woods and were always in a dazed state indifferent to their homes, parents, husbands , some even had children.

Simply because for those like the above, nishkAm karma is easier if you "start off on the right foot" to begin with , so that karma is minimised (read: out of the way) to make the nishkAm part easier, just to be with their beloved Lord.

Why did SAchi mata cry over her son's premature sannyAs (Lord Chaitanya)

So, dear TopsyTurvy, things don't always end at just knowledge of metaphysics - which i don't see why people should be discouraged from.
A 6 year old can understand that God resides in all air, atmosphere, people, living things , furniture etc.


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There are several things not to be mixed up :

1. straight renunciation - skipping grhastha and vAnaprashtha ashramas.

2. Self sufficient bramhacharya - where a person earns a worldly living , but remains single, thus lowering responsibilities , possibly possessions, and all else that comes with grhastAshram. This person may be affiliated with spiritual organizations, do social work etc.

3. GrhastAshram

I do not see why parents should oppose case #2 if the child's sankalpa is firm. - with one note that girls are generally not encouraged to stay single in society. Swami PrabhupAd points out that vedic culture suggested that women are to be protected , first by father, then husband and then grown son.
However, we do have women sanyAsins in ashrams as well as single women earning a living - bramhacharya.

The thing with case #1 is, no matter what level of sannyAs , for most practical purposes, one has to be attached to some organization or ashram. And that requires money, administration and their own kind of 'sansAr'. This is not always practical and feasible. I do not see anything wrong in parents being opposed to #1.

**Finally, parents themselves are not generally afraid of their own old age. Parents are far more concerned about the child's well-being in a world of uncertainty, what to speak of sannyAs ashram.
Sometimes, the father is more adventurous but mother is not , or the other way around, or neither are very adventurous about their child.


praNAm

[Eastern Mind]

they also know their children enough to tell where they are going ... or 'heading'.

While I totally agree with this in principle, there are exceptions. These lead to unhappy marriages, unfortunately. Of course its all karma. I totally believe in "respect your parents"... provided they're not nutcases.

I also think there are several cultural differences and diverse ideas within the Indian subcontinent. Sannyas, for example, seems more common in the North. So I think as I hear more and more, the questions and topic expands.

Aum Namasivaya

[TatTvamAsi]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namast�

ādi śaṅkara was born ~ 650 CE ( now there are others with different dates, but let's go with this one).
At the age of 2 it is said hew could speak, read and write saṃskṛt; He wrote his first book at the age of 7; It is said by 8 years of age he mastered the veda-s.

Such for youth that is blessed.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan,

The only thing is, Adi Sankara was not just a 'regular' human in the eyes of Saivites and Smartas; he was SivA incarnate.

Regarding age in general; unless one shows extraordinary affinity to spirituality, it is generally discouraged as "interests" in childhood are as fleeting as the rainbow. Thus, parents, who look at things in the long run, tend to discourage 'spiritual zeal' of their young ones. The funny thing is, Adi Sankara's mother did it herself! Yet, he had to have the permission and blessing of his mother before he could take sannyas.

The pitru's blessings are paramount in Sanatana Dharma; without them, we are nothing. Self-abnegation and putting your parents' interests ahead of yourself is typical of Sanskriti culture; hopefully a trait that will live on in India as it has for thousands of years!

Namaskar.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

satay writes,


I see your point. You also inform us that there are 4 stages of life so there is order in society and people can come and go as their evolution ( dharma) unfolds.

Now, let me offer another view - I would be with glee if every one renounced the world at least 1 time each day , but I would prefer 3 times a day.
What's this you talk of yajvan ? That would cause havoc in the world!

My thoughts are simple and are of the following notion. When one performs their sādhana (properly) they're renouncing the world , they are giving it up (yaj�a�) to the Supreme. They are giving of 'me' the limited for Being, unlimited.

So where is the renoucing? It comes with one's meditation ( or other upāya�) when one quite naturally experiences pratiprasava i.e. returning to the original state. At that point all is given up, all duality is consumed and left behind. One is in Union with pure awareness (Being).

It doesn't matter which station (āśaram - halting place; stage) one is in life , male or female, which vārna. All are welcomed to experience their true nature and core of their own being.

One needn't go to the forest unless compelled to do so.


praṇām

words

• yaj�a यज्ञ - act of worship or devotion , offering , oblation , sacrifice
• upāya उपाय - that by which one reachges thier aim; techniques, method, approach
• pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - return to the original state ; counter-order , suspension of a general prohibition in a particular case

That was an awesome explanation yajvan. U like totally red my mind.
Like I said "I want to post a single question after reading all this.....
Who told you all that a person would want to renounce the world on hearing spirituality?! That's a common misconception!!! You necessarily "DON'T" have to renounce the world and become a sanyasin to gain knowledge, you can gain knowledge in any of the ashrams of life!!!!! Many of the great rishis of the past were married and still were into spirituality and they had kids too.... Even the great king Janaka was a Kshatriya and a king, thus was he not in samsara and also into the vedas even though he was worldly???! You can be both worldly and into spirituality, AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE BASIC CONCEPT OOOOOF THE 'VAIRAGYAM' IN HINDUISM! Duh... You can find this character in Lord RAMA. That avatar of Vishnu tells us how to reach perfection in spiritual, mental, social, emotional and physical states. SHIVA, is a sanyasin and a gruhastha at the same time, dont you shiva bhaktahs and vishnu bhaktahs know this? Anyway.... I love these replies. " Thats all there is to it. Being like a lotus or swan which stays in the water throughout its and loves the water, but is not wet by it. Similarly, we humans must constantly perform our duties and still constantly, our soul must desire for god alone, which is called vairagya. Hey Satay, plz dont delete this message of its length. Oh yea, I discovered one more thing. I came to know why I was discouraged by my mother, even though she is spiritual like me. It's a simple reason. Its just that since one year, my academic performance is low. My mother told me that I can go all time spirituality if and only if I kick myself back to track. Its just like training an animal by giving it treats. If the animal has to get the treat, it has to listen to its trainer. I also came to know why my father discourages me. Its because he feels I would renounce the world . Nope. Not me. My mother understands me completely. She says she'll even convince my father if I am the best in this year's performance. I Love these replies. This forum is awesome. Its better than even physics forums.

[satay]

namaste,

Hey Satay, plz dont delete this message of its length.

It's 'read' my mind not the color 'red'.