IS AGE AN ISSUE?!! WHY DISCOURAGE US YOUNGSTERS?

[saidevo]

namaste Yajvan.

According to KAnchi ParamAchArya, the Shankara MaThams at KAnchi, DvAraka, and Puri have records to show that the date of Adi Shankara was 590-477 BCE. The 'Orientalists' have put his date to 788-820 CE, which is the date our children read in the history books in India ruled by a pseudo-secular government. A rarely mentioned, third opinion, cites his date as 44-12 BCE.

Thus, I have not come across the date 650 CE. Since you say, 'let us go with this one', may I know the source of your information as to this date?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast� saidevo.

According to KAnchi ParamAchArya, the Shankara MaThams at KAnchi, DvAraka, and Puri have records to show that the date of Adi Shankara was 590-477 BCE. The 'Orientalists' have put his date to 788-820 CE, which is the date our children read in the history books in India ruled by a pseudo-secular government. A rarely mentioned, third opinion, cites his date as 44-12 BCE.
Thus, I have not come across the date 650 CE. Since you say, 'let us go with this one', may I know the source of your information as to this

Yes, I have read the date you offer, and a few other dates:

• 590-477 BCE
• 788-820 CE
• Also 508-476 BCE ( this would make ādi śaṅkara a contemporary of buddha, no?)
• Another between 700-750 CE,
• The one I offered of 650 ( to 700) CE.
• Another is an astrological calculation that pins the date at 805 CE - from T.S. Narayaya Sastri, Age of Śaṅkara, page 223

Please note that I am not a proponent ( or defender) of any one date or the other as I do not have personal knowledge or confident knowledge of any of them.

I have read G.C. Pande� proposes this date of 650 to 700 as reasonable. It was his analysis from the darśana-prakaśa� ; It is said this work quotes the śaṅkarāpaddhati, calling out that śaṅkarā-ji was born 686 CE and died in the śaka (a year of any era) of 642 which = 720 CE , so say the experts ( that would not be me).

Another data point I have read was śaṅkarā-ji was born in the 14th year of king Vikramāditya. Now if this king was the son of Pulakesin II śaṅkara-ji's dates would be 688-700 CE birth.

praṇām

references:
1. Who is G.C. Pande ? http://www.phispc.nic.in/gcp_resume.htm ; One of G.C. Pande's books, Life and thought of Śaṅkarācarāya, page 52

[satay]

namaste,
I can't be sure but let's think about this for a minute... If everyone wanted to renounce the world...what will happen to the society structure? There are after all four stages of life for a regular joe like me.

I don't know about other parents but I can say at least for my father that he will not be happy if I decided to pull the 'buddha' on my family tonight. Imagine I walk out on my wife, daughter, parents, friends, job etc. and disappear to sit under a tree to meditate. I don't think that would be very responsible of me. My duty right now is towards those that need my support.

Now, imagine if everyone walked out on their families who will support the society?

Of course, once all the house holder duties are done with, the next stage is vanaprasta and then sanyasa.

Just my opinion but I don't think hinduism in general encourages one to jump right to sanyasa. There are four stages of life. It is our duty or dharma to do good in all of those four stages. I don't think the regular joes like me should jump to sanyasa directly (for so many reasons...).

Also, there is something called 'pitr ryn' i.e. debt to the ancestors. That debt is to produce children so the lineage can continue. If one jumps directly to sanyasa, who will pay the debt to the ancestors?

The parents' thinking is that when in gristha ashram, we should concentrate on that. Yes, perform puja, do yagya, read sastra but the first duty is to towards the ashrama that we are in i.e. support and provide for the family is the right action for my age.

Of course, as you know my family is khsatriya varna so their thinking might be different from that of a brahmin family.

Would be an interesting experiment if a young member told their parents that they are contemplating renoucing the world within the next few months. I would be interested to know the reaction of the parents. I know what my parents reaction would be...

Smaranam, Satay, et al: So why the parental sadness, or almost disdain for a person wanting to renounce the world, delve within, and seek the Self-God? Why is grihastha dharma so important. I'd think I'd be grateful if one of my children wanted to turn inward to yoga? What are the historical factors here? I personally even pray for the opportunity in the next lifetime to hear about the choice before puberty. What is it about sannyasins that is seemingly so disdainful? Did the Brits or Christians do another number? Is it the stronf family attachment, and Mom just not wanting to let her little boy go?

Aum Namasivaya

[Andeliani]

People that say to wait until you are older are ignorant, we have no idea how long we are going to live and to assume we will reach a certain age is folly.

[satay]

namaskar,

People that say to wait until you are older are ignorant,

Perhaps.

If you die young e.g. in grihasta ashram, isn't there another life? What's the rush? Why forget all your other duties and jump to sanyas? Isn't that being selfish?


(playing devil's advocate)

[sambya]

well , its true that its unwise to rush to sannyasa . sannyasa , like spirituality is totally based on adhikaar(competency) and any hurry to rush the process is bound to end in disaster . i remember a nice example from ramakrishna---" if you try to pull the scab off the wound forcefully it is bound to result in bleeding . but once it heals and time is ripe , it would fall off naturally . " so one must wait till our material wounds heal .

some parents might restrict their kids for logcial reasons , but most often they simply cannot accept that they are going to miss out on being grandparents and have a bahu(daughter in law) and a happy family . subconciously they are also afraid of their son renouncing the world(this is natural though, as they are parents after all) . so the moment they see someone a bit relgious , they get panicky . i have seen this in my life also .
there are many others who simply refuse to accept the fact that their son will be a sannyasi . i have heard a parent saying " alas. my son has renounced this world . i would have been happier to hear that he is dead than to hear this . " just see the dangerous psychology at play with these parents .if their son had been a drug addict ,or a criminal they would have accepted him after a few days of intital trouble . but because he wants to devote his life to god and mankind , they cannot see any fruitfullness in the process .

shastras also make provision for one who has a genuine yearning for god . they are allowed to skip the other two asharamas(namely grihasta and vanaprastha) and directly take to sannyasa .

and one who becomes a genuine seeker sannyasi frees the bonds of his ancestors and descendents for seven generations up and down the line respectively . the pitri rin , deva rin etc are all fullfilled by a true sannyasi as mentioned in shastras .

another point to be mentioned is that there would never be a time when all would renounce the world . spiritual aspirants itself are so few in number , let alone true sannyasis .

secondly if the yearning for god of a would be sannyasi is deep and genuine, god himself takes care so that everything falls into correct place -- his renunciation , his parent's upkeep etc etc .

here i shall tell you an interesting story of swami brahmananda , a disciple of sri ramakrishna . as a kid he had the intense love for god and decided to take up sannyasa sooner or later . his parents panicked and quickly got him married to prevent that sannyasa from happening . he became morose and sad .luckily his mother-in-law turned out to be a spiritual individual who first brought him to ramakrishna pramahamsa . after a few years his wife expired and he prepared himself for sannyasa . seeing this his mother in law's neighbours asked her " why are'nt you being a bit more strict ? is you son-in-law going to turn into a sannyasi ? ". to this she replied " dear me !! will i be fortunate enough to see that holy day ?!! "
just see the change of circumstances . even his mother in law became the happiest person on seeing his son in laws sannyasa .
finally he became the first president of ramakrishna mission . swami vivekananda used to call him " the most advanced in spiritual matters amongst us !! "
similarly if someone has true yearning for god he(god) sees to all his needs .

when it comes to duties , nothing is of more importance than duty of self realization . our very human birth is for that duty . the rest comes all later . we continue to take rebirth and fall into miseries and happiness because that primordial duty remains unfullfilled . and when that duty is met with , the rest are all fulfilled for ever .

having said all those i must also say , that are a good number of individuals who take to sannyasa for escaping the harsh world , or to lead a cult life etc etc . that kind of sannyasa wont work . im talking on the behalf of true sannyasa . there's three types of vairagya --

false vairagya is when someone gets frustrated with material life and thinks about god for a few days . say someone gets ditched in love and heads to vrindavan for a few days rest . this is false vairagya .

the second type is most common , mandya vairagya . here the detachment is genuine but not strong enough . such candidates often succeed to raise their detachment to the highest level and realise god . some others might fail in their atttempt .

the third type is the best vairagya of all -- tivra vairagya or yukta vairagya . intense dispassion and detachment from material things with intense longing for god . this is extremely rare and happens only in final lives of a soul .

even if someone is of mandya vairagya he should try his best to reach the tivra stage . the rest is in the hands of god and his competancy factor.

[sambya]

namaskar,



Perhaps.

If you die young e.g. in grihasta ashram, isn't there another life? What's the rush? Why forget all your other duties and jump to sanyas? Isn't that being selfish?


(playing devil's advocate)

yes there is another life ! your chance to realize him continues . but there's no certainity of getting another human birth .

and if someone think this way it also means that spiritual realization was not his number one aim in life.

once again i would provide a nice story by sri ramakrishna....

two farmers wanted to dig two canal from the river and connect it to their respective fields where their crops was dying for the want of water . both started digging early in the morning and toiled very hard . at noontime both their wives came to the fields and said " its late and you have not taken any food since morning . come sit for a while , take some rest and a refreshing bath and then you can come back for digging . "
hearing this the first farmer said" thats true , i have been unnecessarily working for so long . let go !! "
the second farmer said " that cannot be done . my crops are dying and i shall first do my job and then think of anything else ."
the second farmer continued to dig hard . when sun was setting the task was done and fresh water flowed in to his fields . now he gave an expression of relief and said to his wife " now bring me the towel and food . i shall enjoy "
the second farmer came back in evening but couldnt finish the work that day . and the next day the crops had all but died . he had to begin afresh !!!

the farmers are the aspirants , the wives -- maya ..

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

Satay: I didn't mean taking up sannyas in the middle of grihastha all of a sudden. I think that's quite adharmic. Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant was as a youngster, the real true sannyasin that sambhya referred to.

I know of at least one person, maybe two, who just seemed more suited to the life of a renunciate, and have unhappy marriages because of it. Parents basically forced them to marry.

As sambhya mentioned, these true seekers are few and far between, yet they are a necessary aspect of Hinduism, as that is where we get most, if not all of our Gurus and self-realised beings to look up to from.

Perhaps it has to do with the propensity of 'false; swamis who cause embarassment for their families. I'm not sure.

Basically, I'm just wondering where this sometimes disdainful atitude comes from. perhaops it is also a selfish fear of not having someone to take care of you in old age.

Just thoughts on it.
Aum Namasivaya

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

I want to post a single question after reading all this.....
Who told you all that a person would want to renounce the world on hearing spirituality?! That's a common misconception!!! You necessarily "DON'T" have to renounce the world and become a sanyasin to gain knowledge, you can gain knowledge in any of the ashrams of life!!!!! Many of the great rishis of the past were married and still were into spirituality and they had kids too.... Even the great king Janaka was a Kshatriya and a king, thus was he not in samsara and also into the vedas even though he was worldly???! You can be both worldly and into spirituality, AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE BASIC CONCEPT OOOOOF THE 'VAIRAGYAM' IN HINDUISM! Duh... You can find this character in Lord RAMA. That avatar of Vishnu tells us how to reach perfection in spiritual, mental, social, emotional and physical states. SHIVA, is a sanyasin and a gruhastha at the same time, dont you shiva bhaktahs and vishnu bhaktahs know this? Anyway.... I love these replies.

[amith vikram]

namaste all,
nice thread this.well,i think the whole point in life is adhyatma.i have met a lot of people who feel being spiritual or doing stuff like reading scriptures,discussing and etc.,are something which is optional and isn't a 'necessary' aspect of life.but the more logical we become,we tend to turn more inward.apart from this,the ramayan,mahabharath and other books are so full of energy,that you would miss a lot if u dont read it early.
and i still have some doubts about sanyasa.there are 2 types of sanyasa:vididisha and vidwad.but acc 2 BG,instead of vididisha,we can practice karma-phala tyaga.the second one comes naturally.so i guess no need to dissapoint the family,and just march on with karma-phala tyaga.