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Thread: With a heavy heart ....

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    With a heavy heart ....

    Greetings my fellow humans!

    Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?

    In this presentation I will be using the terms Jati and Varna interchangeably. Many will undoubtedly object. We have already gone over this in a different thread. The fact of the matter is, the Brahmin orthodoxy, from whom the legitimacy of Varna system is derived, holds these two concepts, i.e., Jati and Varna, as closely related, and in common parlance it is alright to use the two terms interchangeably. In support of this I present the following from the web site of Kanchi Kamakoti Matam:
    “There are four varnas - Brahmin, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. We identify "varnas" with "jatis". In point of fact, varna and jati are not the same. The varnas are only the four mentioned above, that is Brahmins, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. Within each there are many jatis. Among Brahmins there are Ayyars, Ayyangars, Raos, and so on. In the fourth varna there are Mudaliars, Pillais, Reddis, Naikkars, Nayudus, Gaundars, Padayacis.“

    “In common parlance jati is used for varna. I am also using the two as interchangeable terms. “
    Sri Vaishnavas also follow the above definition, and I suspect of Madwas do as well. Further, this is how Varna is commonly understood. In the common consciousness of Hindu society, Jati and Varna have remained synonymous. If a claim is made that a nuanced understanding of the texts is needed to really appreciate that Varna has nothing to do with birth, only Jati does, then one might ask how a common man can be expected to see this nuance when even great Acharyas like Adi Shanaka and Bhagavat Ramanuja did not?

    In addition, for the common man in day-to-day life, two things are clear from experience, (i) you are born into a Jati and (ii) this Jati system is hierarchical with the Brahmanas sitting at the top. So, for the enlightened and the uninitiated alike, in the fine points of scripture for the former and daily life for the later, Varna and Jati mean either about the same thing or the same thing. Those who still insist that only Jati is birth based and Varna is not, fall outside the mainstream view. So, for the purpose of this discussion, I will follow the Kanchi Kamakoti Matam’s definition under which (i) Jati is simply a further sub-division of varna, and (ii) in common parlance, Varna and Jati may be used interchangeably.

    From Vedas, Smrithees, and Ithihasa prunas, we are told the Lord made the four Varnas according to gunas and actions; as a function of accumulated papa and punya, people are born into one of these Varnas; these births are infused with a mix of three gunas with one of the three predominating, for example Satva for Brahmins, etc.; just birth is not sufficient, but one must fulfill the prescribed duties to truly belong to a Varna. Of the four Varnas, only Shudra is once born and because of this he is forbidden from studying Shruti. His source of knowledge is only Ithihasa puranas. Shanakara and Ramanuja cite Manu 10.4 to establish this. They also cites Taittria Samhita 7.1.1.6, which says Shudra are not permitted to perform yagnas, to prove that Shudras are not permitted to study the Vedas.

    Why is this objectionable, say some, by claiming that these are just duties, not privileges? A heavy load of stringent duties are prescribed to Brahmanas, and papa will result if these prescribed duties are abandoned. Whereas, there are no ritual duties for Shudras and therefore Shudras are not subject to sins that result from abandonment of ritual duties.

    Yes, all this cannot be objected to, if this is a voluntary system and there is no force. Any group of people can believe in anything they want and subject themselves to any austerities they like. However, this system does not offer any choice. A child born in this society is automatically placed and locked into a Varna for life. If the child does not like this system after growing up, he/she is not even allowed to abandon it. Shudras are threatened with severe punishment if the injections are not followed. The punishments meted out to Shambuka and Ekalaiva are just two examples of this. Even if these are just stories, they served as powerful warnings to Shudras, look what can happen if you try to challenge the system.

    If the Varna system promises a cushy life for Shudras, would they not be happy to stay in that station and never try to free themselves from Shudrahood? Why then take the trouble of warning them of severe consequences if they transgress? Gautama Smrithi says Shudra are like cemetery and warns that the ears of a Shudra who hear the chanting of Vedas must be filled with molten lead. If he dares reciting Vedas his tongue is to be slit and his body is to be cut. What is the point of such harshness?

    But, what is very disheartening is the fact that both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja cite the above injunctions to establish that Vedas should not be taught to Shudra. The practice of keeping out Shudra from Vedic study is followed even in these modern times. No Veda Pathashala run by Brahmnical institutions will accept a Shudra child in their midst.

    Some argue that Varnashrama darma is a means by which one purifies one’s soul, a prerequisite for moksha. They further assert that there is no gradation in Varna, all duties are to be performed as Bhagavat Aradanam. The job of a priest is not superior to that of a toilet cleaner. Again, all this is fine if these are voluntary. If you willingly and voluntarily and in full knowledge, believe in this doctrine, then no one has the right to take this experience away from you. But this Varna system is not based on consent. It is imposed on people at the time of birth. People of “low” birth are kept illiterate so that they never would know any better. Just look at the following injunctions against Shudra described in Manu Smrithi.
    • 8.270 says Shudra are of low origin.
    • 2.31 says a Shudra must be named something contemptible
    • 3.164 equates a breeder of sporting-dogs, a falconer, one who defiles maidens, he who delights in injuring living creatures, he who gains his subsistence, with Shudra.
    • 8.147 says a Brahmana can just seize the goods of Shudra for he is not permitted to have any property
    • 9.178 says a son a Brahmana begets through lust on a Shudra female is a living corpse -- who is to determine it is by lust or true love, I don’t know!!
    • 10.129 says a Shudra is not allowed to accumulate wealth because Shudra with wealth will give pain to Brahmanas.
    • 11.131 & 132 equate the punishment for murdering a Shudra with that of cat, dog, frog, bird, etc. The punishment can be as mild and beneficial to Brahmana as giving ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.
    Vile teachings of MS are too numerous to enumerate. Some may see humor in this, but normal people are rightly mortified by all this degrading vitriol piled upon a group of people just because they were born Shudra. If the Varna system is for purifying one’s soul, that will lead to enlightenment someday, what is the need for these degrading injunctions?

    One may be tempted to brush aside Manu Smrithi as an unimportant or irrelevant text. But, if you did, you will be contradicting great acharyas like Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja, both of whom cite Taittria Samhita 2.2.10.2 to extol MS as medicine for society’s ills, like an anti-biotic perhaps. Both these acharyas profusely quote from MS to bolster their arguments. A widely respected commentator of the acclaimed Tamil text on morality called Thirukkural, who happens to be Brahmin (Parimelazhagar), uses MS extensively in his commentary. So, as we can see, MS was held in high regard among Brahmin orthodoxy and intellectuals, and this is still true among the Brahmin orthodoxy.

    Religion is normally promoted as a way of achieving something exalted. Yet, the Varna system, as presented to us by Hindu religious texts and acharyas, keeps a large section of the population from advanced religious study strictly based on birth, not on desire or ability.

    Based on all these, saying the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism is, IMO, callously mild.

    All this humiliation is for Shudra who are part of the Varna system. The lot of the antyajas and avarnas, who don’t deserve to be even included in the Varna system, is far worse. They were relegated to the meanest of menial vocation and some in the orthodoxy considered the mere sight of one of them is polluting.

    Up until about 1930s Dalits were legally disallowed to enter a temple premises or even the street where a temple is located. More than 60 years after independence, Dalits are still prevented from entering temples. Even with court order and police protection, Dalits were prevented from entering a temple in Tamilnadu recently by the upper caste Hindus. They were able to enter in their second attempt accompanied by the collector himself. This is not an isolated incidence, it is happening from Assam to Tamil Nadu, from Orissa to Gujarat. The Orissa case is telling. Here is a quote from a priest,
    “The Dalits have besmirched the religious traditions and have polluted the temple. We need to perform Maha Snana, a bath ritual of the deity."
    Gandhi said untouchability is a blot on Hinduism. Some 60 years later Manmohan Singh says untouchability is a blot on humanity. Those who want to say untouchability is not in the Varna system are only obfuscating.

    Some people say this is not the fault of the Varna system, Brahmanas are not involved; it is all political and economic. Why then are the conflicts falling along caste lines? A poor upper caste may find his lot not very different from that of a poor Dalit, but he will still side with the rich of his own caste. There is no doubt caste is at the root of these conflicts, which is a product of the Varna system, and thus Brahmins must take responsibility even though their hands are not directly dirty.

    Another defense some offer is that people don’t follow the Varna system as intended. If only they did, everything will be perfect. If this was so, then we have to blame the one who designed this system in the first place. God is said to have designed this system, and this almighty god designed a system that was so easily subverted by mere humans? With all his omnipotence and omniscience, why did he not design a system that people could follow properly?

    Be that as it may, it is only when we strictly follow the Varna system, as it was designed and explained, we have to engage in brutal oppression of Shudra and avarna, and the domination of women. Only to the extent we do not follow the Varna system, as intended, do we not engage in these vile practices.

    Some defend the Varna system from purely religious doctrinal grounds such as Advaitam. They say, in the ultimate, difference is unreal and so on. Those who find such doctrinal defense perfectly legitimate, without any sense of irony, are not averse to criticize things they find objectionable in other religions. For instance, pious Christians consider saving souls by bringing them to Jesus is the most merciful thing their God ordained. For them, proselytizing is a solemn duty because God ordained it. How can something God ordained be anything but good? The same is the case with the doctrine of eternal damnation of those who do not take Jesus Christ as their savior. Fundamentalist Christians believe this to be God’s dictum and therefore moral.

    Of course non-Christians reject this out of hand, and rightly so. Christians may believe anything they want, that is fine, but no reasonable person will hesitate to say these are hideous. Many reasonable Christians themselves are properly embarrassed by all this and reject these with equal emphasis. Recently, one of the Christian members of HDF suggested that Christians must focus on the Sermon of the Mount, and not on the theology of resurrection.

    Similarly, Varna system may be a perfectly noble system for some die-hard Hindus, but the rest of us cannot be expected to just simply accept their judgment. Arguments that appeal to religious doctrine and dogma may find traction within the confines of shared faith, but not outside. A non-Hindu, or even a Hindu with reform in his/her heart, cannot be expected to accept the claim that Varna system is righteous, any more than a non-Christian can be expected to accept proselytizing is good because God said so. Therefore, to evaluate whether Varna system is a boon or bane for Hinduism, we have to view it dispassionately. We need to evaluate the Varna system whether it has been beneficial to the society in general or not, in a sort of utilitarian way.

    Caste/Varna system continues to dog our society in a myriad of ways. It has divided our nation into caste groups that are at each other’s throats all the time. Except a few racists here and there, a system that discriminates based on birth is universally despised. Article 2 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights made in 1948 says the following:
    “Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status…..” (emphasis mine)
    The caste/varna system, so far as it is birth based, is no different from racial discrimination, so says the UN International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, 1965. Here is the text that defines what encompasses racial discrimination.
    “… any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.” (emphasis mine)
    The 2002 report from the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, included the following,
    “Strongly reaffirming that discrimination based on "descent" includes discrimination against members of communities based on forms of social stratification such as caste and analogous systems of inherited status which nullify or impair their equal enjoyment of human rights,” (emphasis mine)
    With world opinion settled against decent based discrimination of any kind, continued support for Varna system on any basis will only have negative impact on how Hinduism is viewed. This is why Varna system is a blot that must be removed as quickly and as completely as possible.

    As we have seen in the past few days, Varna is a controversial topic. People come with a particular POV and are quick to accuse others of misunderstanding the whole thing. I do not begrudge enthusiastic young Hindus showing an urge to present the Varna system in as best a light as possible. But, I submit to you, that is not a wise approach. Welfare of Hindu dharma requires an unbiased understanding of Varna, how it is defined in the scriptures, how it is practiced, how it is viewed, and what effect it has had on the society, and, committed action to redress any issues that need remedying.

    For all its greatness in advanced philosophical thinking, Hindu religion is inextricably linked to Varna/Caste system. Fine distinctions between Varna and Jati exist only in the minds of Brahmins who are uncomfortable with the discriminatory practices described in Manu, against women and the so called Shudra and Avarnas, and followed by the dominant castes only to the extent convenient. For the orthodox Brahmins and the common people, especially the ones towards the bottom of the hierarchy, these nuances are lost, in theoretical purity for the former, and the day-to-day reality for the later. So, rightly or wrongly, in so far as the insidious caste system is inseparably linked with Varna and Manu, the Varna system remains the worst weakness for Hinduism. This is why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism and getting rid of it is like cutting off a rotting limb to save the life. The sooner Hindus do it, the sooner they will be back in good health, so long as religion remains of interest to the common folks. Not doing it will inescapably cost it the very existence. Many a religion have come and gone. Hubris in one’s own religious superiority can only result in its fall.

    There is intellectual basis for getting rid of this Varna system. From what I have heard, Vishnu Purana and Srimat Bhagavatam say in Kali Yuga everything will be topsy turvy and nobody will follow the prescribed dharma. So, the establishment can say the Varna system is not applicable for the present times and embrace a more open and inclusive theology, somewhat like that of Sri Vaishnavam of Azhvars, or Saivam of Nayamanars and Lingayath of Karnataka. Some have already done this, like Arya Samaj. But unfortunately, they still pay homage to Manu and cling to the same terminologies like Varna. There must be a clean break.

    I have said all this because I am fond of Hinduism, even though I am now an avowed atheist. If there must be a religion for society to prosper, then I rather it is Hinduism of Bhagavat Ramjanuja’s kind where the Iswara is not a blob of useless consciousness, but a loving god never separated from each of us.

    So, I request you not to think of me as just a foe. I mean no harm for Hinduism. I am also aware that this disclaimer may not satisfy everyone and there may be some heavy push back. I welcome a spirited debate. However, I request everyone to stick to the points and refrain from taking cheap shots. I can only request, the rest is up to you guys. I will respond to any comment that is free of Ad Hominem.

    Cheers!

  2. #2
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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    This may not be a popular opinion, but since I am a silly anglo and apparently of some below, below lowest class not even able to classify how unfit I am.. I find your posts very informative.

    Nara, as much trouble and isolation as I have suffered from not swallowing the pill and becoming a sheep with the masses here in the USA....your posts always help me realize how lucky I am to be a free spirit. Untouchable by some opinions, and very glad of it.

    My family is 1/2 Irish and 1/2 Cherokee...Very hearty tough warrior folk. I was raised believing I could be anything, do anything, go anywhere!
    I can't imagine living a childhood where such things were decided by a parents status in this lifetime.

    I have learned more about Varna system on here than I have reading for 6 years. It's true! All thanks to you.<3

    This post has really no point but to basically to say: "Rock on with your bad self":P

    Translation: You're brilliant!

  3. #3
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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Greetings my fellow humans!
    Why the Varna system is a blot on Hinduism?
    Dear Shri Nara

    You only prove that not all should read shastra. In world, the problem is an Osama having read as per his ego -- imagining himself to be an individual and a messiah. In India also such happen.

    We will discuss further. For the time being let me remind you:

    There is intellectual basis for getting rid of this Varna system. From what I have heard, Vishnu Purana and Srimat Bhagavatam say in Kali Yuga everything will be topsy turvy and nobody will follow the prescribed dharma.


    MS also says so. Further, Vishnu Purana and Bhagavatam say many more things. Do you have the courage and will to study in full? You have created an excuse that you do not believe in after life. A sudra is none but a Brahmana, who has failed miserably on account of hatred etc.

    You do not show us the verse from MS that a Brahmana is not a Brahmana, who knows not the Self as One and All. It is easy to understand that a true Brahmana cannot see a Sudra as another. Kindly read in full and contemplate before you gun after a scripture. Ears of such Brahmanas also should be filled with molten lead when such avidya prone Brahamana studies Veda.

    If you had read about the duties and obligations of Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaishyas, with open mind, you would have immediately understood that they are bound to fall with even a small mistake. What is being said about Sudra cannot be about any other but only these higher castes who fall on account of hatred (which again is Avidya of a single Purusha as all these).

    Repeat: If you had read about the duties and obligations of Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaishyas, with open mind, you would have immediately understood that they are bound to fall with even a small mistake. What is being said about Sudra cannot be about any other but only these higher castes who fall on account of hatred (which again is Avidya of a single Purusha as all these).

    Shri Krishna in Gita says (like all scriptures of this Universe) that He sends the demons, who are hard of heart, to lower and lower states. One cannot blame another for one's status. At the same time hard heartedness is the biggest crime, in the eyes of God.


    The knowledge of VarNa is enshrined in Veda -- not as a fact of discrete differences but as a fact of based on a single substratum called Purusha.

    Do you mean to say that this knowledge can be and should be discarded?

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 02 April 2010 at 07:34 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Namaste Shri Nara

    We had seen the following before.

    But maybe that is our mistake: maybe there are no particle positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability.

    (Stephen Hawking, 1988)

    I know that you are probably an Engineer. So the above meaning should not go waste on you. It is not dissimilar to the phenomena of Adhasya and resultant mistake taught by Shankara.

    The mistake occurs because we mostly superimpose our own individuality on the scripture, which says right in the beginning that it is one indivisible truth. Discarding this, one sees only discreteness -- which is a natural mistake. A Sudra is none but that Brahmana actually, but as an effect of separteness has been brought about, it must be overcome by right work and knowledge.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 02 April 2010 at 12:10 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #5

    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Dear Nara,
    I have been reading your posts. Though I disagree with many of the points that you have raised, but I like the sincerity and truthfulness. In common terms, it is indeed true that jati and varna are used interchangeability. Jati is considered to belong to a Varna. Indeed, till the beginning of this century, people of that Jati were more or less forces to follow that occupation. They would be persecuted severely, and with heavy punishment, by people who are dominant in that region. Many time, people dominant in that region did not necessarily belong to higher caste. Whichever caste got powerful in the village, ended up persecuting other people. They were all ably supported by born-Brahamna preists, who themselves colluded with these people and lent credibilty from a religious point of view. The Avarnas (Dalit or Harijan) have suffered the most. Driven out of the village as untouchables, they were treated as pariahs. Also called as Musahars, Chamars etc. in north India, they provided menial labor to till the land, dealt with dead animals etc. etc. In short, Hindu soceity fragmented by these divisions, supported by religious heads, was going nuts. After independence, and urbanization, and free access to knowledge much has changed. It is still changing, and I see a more equitable soceity emerging in India.

    I would have thought that such a pervasive caste system in Hinduism, it would have a sound basis in Scriptures. But, that is not so. You say that Shankara supports it. May be he did, but it was in his times. At the same time, in Manisha-Panchakam he writes -
    ब्रह्मैवाहमिदं जगच्च सकलं चिन्मात्रविस्तारितं
    सर्वं चैतदविद्यया त्रिगुणयाशेषं मया कल्पितं ।
    इत्थं यस्य दृढा मति: सुखतरे नित्ये परे निर्मले
    चाण्डालोस्तु स तु द्विजोस्तु गुरुरित्येषा मनीषा मम ॥
     
    I am quite convinced that he is the great Master, be he a Brahmin or an outcaste, who, dwelling on the pure and innite Brahman thinks of himself as that very Brahman, of whose manifestation the whole Universeis,though apparently the Universe is assumed to consist of different things, due to ignorance and the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Tamas).


    Other people have pointed out similar writings by Madhwa and others.

    In Shruti's the Vajra-Shuchika Upanishad clearly writes about Varna being not based on birth. Agreed that this is not a primary Upansihad, but it is indeed listed as 101 Upanishads in Muktikopanishad. At the end, I am attaching this for your reference (taken originally from hindunet.org with my modifications). There is no such Shruti support for birth based Varna.
    I agree with you that the present Hundu religious leaders can do better. At Kumbh in 1988 in Prayag, Puri Shakaracharya was extolling the virtues of Sati (burning of wives on husband's pyre). This was at a time, when Rup Kanwar had commited Sati in Rajasthan. Propelled by local religious people, people had created a temple at the site of Sati, which became quite popular. Shankaracharya of Puri is a well read person, and can find verses from the wide selection of Hindu books, and justify it.
    However, we must look to Shrutis and critical analysis, to make an absolute assertion about the fact the Sanatana Dharma supports a particular social custom. I havent seen anything in Shruti that unequivocally supports birth based Jati. At the same time, in Vajra-Shuchika, there is unequivocal resistance to this thought.

    HariH Om!
    Hare Krishna

    Vajra-Shuchika
    ----------------
    ब्राह्मक्षत्रियवैष्यशूद्रा इति चत्वारो वर्णास्तेषां वर्णानां ब्राह्मण एवप्रधान इति वेदवचनानुरूपं स्मृतिभिरप्युक्तम् ।
    The Brahmana, Ksatruya, Vaishya and Sudra - these are the four Varnas.
    तत्र चोद्यमस्ति को वा ब्राह्मणो नाम किं जीवः किं देहः किं जातिः किंज्ञानं किं कर्म किं धार्मिक इति ॥
    Actually who is this whom we refer by the name Brahmana? Is he the subtle body known as) Jiva ? Is he the physical body? Is he caste to which he belongs? Is he the knowledgeable one? Is he the doer? Is he the religious rites he performs?
     
    तत्र प्रथमो जीवो ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    अतीतानागतानेकदेहानां
    जीवस्यैकरूपत्वात् एकस्यापि कर्मवशादनेकदेहसंभवात् सर्वशरीराणांजीवस्यैकरूपत्वाच्च । तस्मात् न जीवो ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    Of this the first premise that Brahmana is jiva is not tenable because the same jiva enters different bodies in previous lives. Although it is one, due to the impact of the past deeds and desires the same jiva happens to reside in many bodies.
    Therefore a Brahmana is not on account of the jiva.
    तर्हि देहो ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    आचाण्डालादिपर्यन्तानां मनुष्याणां
    पञ्चभौतिकत्वेन देहस्यैकरूपत्वात्
    जरामरणधर्माधर्मादिसाम्यदर्शनत् ब्राह्मणः श्वेतवर्णः क्षत्रियोरक्तवर्णो वैश्यः पीतवर्णः शूद्रः कृष्णवर्णः इति नियमाभावात् ।
    पित्रादिशरीरदहने पुत्रादीनां ब्रह्महत्यादिदोषसंभवाच्च ।
    तस्मात् न देहो ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    Then coming to the statement that the body is Brahmana, this also is not acceptable because universally the body is composed of the self same five elements, from the Brahmanas down to the Chandala and subject to the same processes of old age and death, good and evil in all. One cannot also generalize that the Brahmanas have white complexion, the Kshatriyas red complexion, the Vaishyas brown complexion and the Sudras dark complexion. Besides the bodies can become tainted with such sins as the killing of Brahmans, improper cremation of bodies by their descendents and so on. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of the body.
    तर्हि जाति ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    तत्र
    जात्यन्तरजन्तुष्वनेकजातिसंभवात् महर्षयो बहवः सन्ति ।
    ऋष्यशृङ्गो मृग्याः
    ,कौशिकः कुशात्,जाम्बूको जाम्बूकात्,वाल्मीकोवाल्मीकात्,व्यासः कैवर्तकन्यकायाम्,शशपृष्ठात् गौतमः, वसिष्ठ उर्वश्याम्,अगस्त्यः कलशे जात इति शृतत्वात् ।
    एतेषां
    जात्या विनाप्यग्रे ज्ञानप्रतिपादिता ऋषयो बहवः सन्ति ।
    तस्मात्
    न जाति ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    Then it is said that a Brahmana is so because of his caste. This is not acceptable because there are diverse communities in the world, even in the animal world, and the seers and sages come from different communities. We have heard from the sacred scriptures that many seers were of animal origin. Rishyasringa was born of a deer, Kaushika came from the grass, Jambuka from a Jackal, Valkimi from an ant hill, Vyasa from a fisher girl, Gautama from the back of a hare, Vashista from the celestial nymph Urvasi, Agastya from an earthen vessel. Among these many have attained the highest rank, despite of their lower birth and given proof of their wisdom. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of his community.
     
    तर्हि ज्ञानं ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    क्षत्रियादयोऽपि
    परमार्थदर्शिनोऽभिज्ञा बहवः सन्ति ।
    तस्मात् न ज्ञानं ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    The argument that knowledge makes a Brahmana is also not acceptable because many Kshatriyas and others have seen the Highest Reality and attained perfect knowledge. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of his knowledge.
     
    तर्हि कर्म ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    सर्वेषां प्राणिनां
    प्रारब्धसञ्चितागामिकर्मसाधर्म्यदर्शनात्कर्माभिप्रेरिताः सन्तो जनाःक्रियाः कुर्वन्तीति ।
    तस्मात् न कर्म ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    That karma make a Brahmana is not acceptable because we see the existence of prarabdha and sanchita karma in all beings. Impelled by their previous karma only all the saintly people perform their deeds. Therefore a Brahmana is not so jsut because of karma.
     
    तर्हि धार्मिको ब्राह्मण इति चेत् तन्न ।
    क्षत्रियादयो हिरण्यदातारो बहवः
    सन्ति ।
    तस्मात् न धार्मिको ब्राह्मण इति ॥
    Then it is also not true that on account of dharma (religious duty or activity) is a Brahmana. There are many Kshatriyas who have given away gold as charity. Therefore a Brahmana is not just on account of dharma
     
    तर्हि को वा ब्रह्मणो नाम ।
    यः कश्चिदात्मानमद्वितीयं जातिगुणक्रियाहीनं
    षडूर्मिषड्भावेत्यादिसर्वदोषरहितं सत्यज्ञानानन्दानन्तस्वरूपंस्वयंनिर्विकल्पमशेषकल्पाधारमशेषभूतान्तर्यामित्वेनवर्तमानमन्तर्यहिश्चाकाशवदनुस्यूतमखण्डानन्दस्वभावमप्रमेयं
    अनुभवैकवेद्यमपरोक्षतया भासमानं करतळामलकवत्साक्षादपरोक्षीकृत्य
    कृतार्थतयाकामरागादिदोषरहितः शमदमादिसंपन्नो भाव मात्सर्य
    तृष्णा आशा मोहादिरहितो दम्भाहङ्कारदिभिरसंस्पृष्टचेता वर्तत
    एवमुक्तलक्षणो यः स एव ब्राह्मणेति शृतिस्मृतीतिहासपुराणाभ्यामभिप्रायः अन्यथा हि ब्राह्मणत्वसिद्धिर्नास्त्येव ।
     
    Then who is to be known by the name Brahmana? He who succeeds in perceiving directly the self without a second like an amalaka fruit in the palm of his hand, who is devoid of the distinction of caste, trait and action, who is devoid of all the faults such as the six imperfections and the six states of being, who is of the nature of truth, knowledge, bliss and infinity, who is self existent, without will power, but the impeller and supporter of all will power, who exists in all as the indwelling spirit, who is within and without of all like the ether, who is of the nature of indivisible bliss, immeasurable, known only through ones direct experience, who manifests himself directly as truth, who has successfully overcome such imperfections as desire and passion, who is filled with the riches of tranquility, who has eliminated from his being such states as envy, greed and infatuation, who lives unaffected by such things as ostentation and egoism- these aforesaid qualities make up a Brahmana.
     

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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    If I am allowed to lighten up the heavy heart a bit, though again the attempt may be a failure?

    It is an event of sometime back when my daughters were aged 4 and 9. I was working one morning, when I heard an altercation between two darlings of mine. I could not hear the full matter of their dispute but I heard the following:

    The older one asked the younger: "Do you think that you are very ingellitent?"

    The younger one retorted "You are a beskoof."



    I try to remember that my thoughts and actions may be as ingellitent or as beskoof as above. But i am convinced that eventually beskoofi prevails.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Quote Originally Posted by harekrishna View Post
    Dear Nara,
    I have been reading your posts. Though I disagree with many of the points that you have raised, but I like the sincerity and truthfulness.
    Namaste harekrishna

    I personally laud your post.

    Any human with logical sense of justice and goodness may balk at reading of scripture, just as we may balk at many sayings of scriptures of various religions. Yet I at least cannot assume that Purusha Suktam is a political tool of Brahmanas. I also cannot even imagine that Shankara or Ramanuja were just furthering this assumed political goal. I do not know whether I am wrong to assume that if they did not oppose a sruti as null and void then they must have done that with goodwill for all.

    Shankara (and Ramnuja and Madhava) accept the injunction of sruti that Vedic scripture and rituals are barred for some. At the same time Shankara cites Manu Smriti to say that 'Sudra is pure'. He goes on to say, citing, Mahabharata that Purana and Itihas are not barred. He further concludes, taking example of Vidura and other such pure enquirer that KNOWLEDGE is not barred from any one.

    One can read Shankara Bhashya to confirm the above. You have also cited enough proof in support.

    Further, Buddha, who did not use scripture but arrived at His independent understanding, did not teach that Hinduism was evil on account of teaching of varna. Then why should Dr. Ambedkar do so?

    I feel that it is true that scripture (sruti) should not be for all. Example of Osama is before us.

    In this regard, i can now cite Shri Ramana Maharshi who was not of any caste and he equally gave his grace to all who came to Him. He in fact taught to all that the world, asrama, the caste, the divisions, the wars, etc. etc. that one cognises and acts upon are not separate from oneself who is the seer and knower, which is the ultimate truth. Yet, He also said: "It is not good to throw out religious conventions but it is advisable to contemplate on why a convention."

    He further taught, as the ultimate, that "The seeing is by the seer. The seeing (and subsequent interpretation and action) is not outside of the seer."

    I know that the last teaching will not be comprehended by all and thus is not for all. So, we must know that a jiva, who thinks that it is body, actually is all pervasive, before we can understand the import of scripture.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Namaste HK,

    Thanks for a beautiful post !

    VajrashUshikA is one of the main 108 Upanishads & it is as authoritative as Shruti as any of the other parts of Vedas. It completely rejects the "varna by birth" theory. I have also quoted many other texts from our religious scriptures that "Varna by birth" neither has support of the Vedas nor it was followed by the Hindu Society as has been indicated in Manu Smriti. Even Manu Smriti acknowledges assimilation of various foreign invader tribes into Hindu social structure (as kashtriyas). The history tells us that there were many powerful Sudra Kings & they had matrimonial relationship with many of the Kshatriya kings. The ancient history is testimony to the fact that the Manu’s laws were not strictly followed in case of many examples.

    That said, we cannot deny that the caste discrimination did irreparable damage to Hindu society. On one hand we readily accepted the invading tribes as kshatriyas & on the other hand tried to be too hard on our own people in the name of Manu Smriti. However, the atrocities committed on so called untouchables was not only due to Manu Smriti … as we have seen how Manu Smriti was not followed in case of powerful dynasties and individuals. This was due to the feudal mindset of the powerful class & that was not exclusive to Hindus in India. This mentality has been there in all races & countries. This mentality was in Romans and British & similar civilized societies where the society was divided in different classes.

    However, people like Nara are happy to dissociate themselves from Hindu society as a whole & pay lip service to Hindu society as if they are its well-wishers … and that is where my objection lies. If you have dissociated yourselves from Hindu Society and are ashamed to call yourself a Hindu, you have no right to criticize us from a distance. This is only to push our morale down as a community and as a Nation. This cannot do any good to us. If someone from outside criticises us, it is ok … but not one who once was a Hindu & now declares himself a non-Hindu.

    There have been many Hindus who have done a lot to eradicate the evils of casteism within Hindu society & they are the real well-wishers of Hindu society. If someone’s heart really bleeds for the downtrodden within Hindu society, let him work towards upliftment of it. These scriptures were in place in the time of Dayananda Sarasvati, Mahatma Gandhi, Dr Rajendra Prasad, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Swami Vivekananda, Ramkrishna Paramhansa, Sant Tuka Ram, Paramhansa Yogananda and many other prominent personalities within Hinduism. They never chose to sit down and keep criticizing everything that is Hindu. They instead chose to correct the system & still keeping the morale of the Hindus high.

    What is situation today ? The situation is almost reverse today, if that gives Mr Nara some satisfaction. It has become a sort of curse to be born in a so-called upper caste family. There are many Brahmins who have no means to have two times meals everyday but their wards won’t get any special privilege to study or for a job. There are many brahmin girls who could not be married for want of money and committed suicide or were killed by parents. The situation of a poor upper caste's born person is bleak ... he has no future in India today unless he is exceptionally brilliant. On the other hand, son of a Sudra millionaire or even the son of the Prime Minister of India is entitled to special reservations in schools, colleges and jobs. Today, it is not the problem of discrimination against the so-called lower castes within Hinduism … it is the discrimination against the so-called upper castes which is the main problem today.

    The times keep changing … & so the problems within a society. Laudable are those who remain within that society and keep contributing towards the betterment of the society as a whole & not those who adopt foreign sanskriti, citizenship and feel proud to dissociate from that society. I lot has changed since my childhood days within India. I have seen criminal discrimination against the so-called untouchables and was against it at that time and I am also seeing today the so called Brahmin and other castes being maltreated at the hands of powerful Sudras and I am against this reverse discrimination too.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 02 April 2010 at 04:21 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #9
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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Recently, one of the Christian members of HDF suggested that Christians must focus on the Sermon of the Mount, and not on the theology of resurrection.
    Oh I'm not christian, I haven't been for over 2 years, I'm hindu, looking into formal conversion as a saiva

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    Re: With a heavy heart ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvati View Post
    Oh I'm not christian, I haven't been for over 2 years, I'm hindu, looking into formal conversion as a saiva
    I assumed and made an ass out of me, I apologize....

    peace ....

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