Member
Again at the heart of Dharma Shastra is this:
2.23. That land where the black antelope naturally roams, one must know to be fit for the performance of sacrifices; (the tract) different from that (is) the country of the Mlekkhas (barbarians).
Dharma Shastra of sacrifice cannot be for all.
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
New Member
Dear harekrishna, so it is a matter of interpretation, not at all clear cut as you said earlier.Originally Posted by harekrishna
Even here, I feel uncomfortable accepting what you are saying. Vajrashuchika does not say anyone with the qualities described is a brahmana regardless of birth. All we can say from this Upanishad is birth is not a sufficient condition for brahmanahood.
The Upanishad starts out with denying Brahmanahood for jiva or body. Then it rejects Brahmanahood as a result of jati, knowledge, karma, or dharma. Then it defines certain set of qualities some religious and others secular, and finally declares that only he with these qualities is a Brahmana.
Now, is it saying a Shudra by birth exhibiting these qualities is also a Brahamna? If you say yes, then I have to say there are two Brahamanas, one described in the Upanishad and one that is part of the Varana system, and the one from the Varna system is definitely birth based.
All this ambiguity is due to the dual usage of the term “brahmana” and as I said earlier, it is quite self-serving.
Cheers!
Member
Namaste saidevoji
In my opinion:
Shri Shankara and Shri Ramanuja quote Manu Sm. 10th Chapter in their bhashyas to indicate that Vedic rituals and verses are not to be given to sudras. Shankara additionally says that Knowledge is not barred to Sudra. Similarly, Kanchi seer, Sivananda, and even ISCKON and other Hindu teachers have not pointed anything amiss in MS. They hold MS as Dharma Shastra without any question. Shri Krishna teaches that dharma should be practised as per nidhi. By rejecting, anything in scripture (MS in this case) we admit that the scripture is not protected by God. Moreover, there is a chance that we distort the scripture. However, smriti is usually time constrained. But MS itself speaks of changed scenario during kali and also attributes the Moola Dharma to the Vedas, which is timeless.
(In Vedas also some can point out violence, caste, discrimination etc. Kanchi pontiff thus warns that the revealed scripture should not be subjected to historical analysis. )
Actually, just as it is possible for one to stick to one's belief that advaita is irrational, by bypassing the very basic premise of Veda that the truth is one and Sat-Chit-Ananda, it is also possible to attribute vile to Manu Smriti by the motivated minds. It is easy and there is no medicine for that.
Manu Smriti puts in few clauses: such as suitabilty based on absolute lack of hatred, source of varNa in one Purusha, the mutabilty of varNa, the possibilty of a Brahmin becoming a Sudra etc. If one bypasses these, one bypasses the spiritual basis and relies only on the fleshy body, which is not the varNa signifier.
As Vivendi has pointed out, Shri Nara is intentionally equating varNa (a spiritual aspect/trait) with birth as absolute equalty. He is not considering the mutabilty. He is not considering the re-birth. He is not considering that the negative descriptions of Sudra do not relate to a Sudra by birth but to a being, who is Sudra by nature -- and that can be anyone. Shri Nara does not consider the verses that speak about the easy fall of so-called higher varNas to Sudra dom. The Sudra verses are applicable to these fallen angels also. MS has not taught untouchabilty and neither it has taught that varNa is immutable. Shri Nara, as per me, is also not amenable to see the ills in Rajasic and Tamasic Guna of men, rather than in scripture.
varNa is linked to birth because duties and rituals have to be performed and no one can know the true varNa. But no one has said that varNa is a fleshy concept. It is primarily a guna-karma effect and both of these are not immutable. Birth gives a start but obligations remain. Failing with those obligations, it is said, that a Brahmana becomes a Sudra in three days.
Vedic verse should not be read by those, who have not the knowledge of Pragnya nature of this world. This is specified in Svet. U. and Mundka U.. This thread exemplifies that.
Finally, MS teaches that the moola of Dharma is the Vedas. So, even if we keep the MS at sidelines, the concept of Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Sudra as the very body of divine Purusha cannot be given up by those who consider themselves hindus.
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 02 April 2010 at 04:59 PM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
You miss the whole point. The self serving do not remain a brahmana.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Murkha Jana मूर्ख जन
This post, is very dear to my heart. I wish more people thought this way.
More times than I can say in the past yeat that I have had someone refuse to even greet me, and immediately attempt conversation with my sweet beautiful husband who has a problem with social aspects...but yet they won't even look me in the eyes because I'm female...This female body is not what's inside. It deceives....oh sure it looks pretty...but it lies to the person looking at only that.
I cut the grass...I played football as a teen...was raised to believe in each souls equality. Yet always, I find my "place" is that following behind my husband. He walks beside me...never knew why this was so wrong.
Member
Narasurya
You raise good points. Yet do you not consider yourself a female? The reality of soul's equality is for you (and everyone) to experience and attain. But, as of now, that you are a female is true.
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Murkha Jana मूर्ख जन
I am female, have birthed 9 children. 8 live, and I am their mother...1 was stillborn. I am a mother to many, any....if you need me I will love you whomever you are. I am at your service.
Also, I love the beautiful things about being a female. I love my husband completely. I serve him as a wife's duty is as if serving God... a mother serves God by caring well for her children. I have not defied my birth gender in any way whatsoever. To do so would be an affront to the divine.
But, in the USA ...this culture, a female child can be born very strong...and it is acceptable. I would run away to the woods barefoot and stay all day and night with burs in my pigtails...I would come home with cuts and ticks but parents never discouraged...only nurtured. I was allowed to remain true. I can push a car out of a ditch and even repair it depending on issue. My husband is also on this forum he would come here and read and verify this.
For me, inside I feel very neutral about it. I don't feel female or male. I am here to serve others. The gender, this American culture....it's the ultimate illusion. It's my costume for this party. I will wear it, but it would be nice to have someone look beyond this vessel.
~*~*~*~*~
Namaste
GaneshPrasadji had pointed out somewhere the symptoms of Kali Yuga .
Here are some verses from Canto 12 Chapter 2 of Shrimad BhAgvat on Kali Yuga
Please read, but do not get disheartened, as alongside Kali is this Golden Age where Spirituality , Holy Name , Grace and Mercy of the Divine is generously available. Plus we are not this body.
SB 12.2.1: Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: Then, O King, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, duration of life, physical strength and memory will all diminish day by day because of the powerful influence of the age of Kali.
SB 12.2.2: In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.
SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. ....
......
SB 12.2.11: The maximum duration of life for human beings in Kali-yuga will become fifty years.
SB 12.2.12-16: By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varṇāśrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. .....
SB 12.2.17: Lord Viṣṇu — the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master of all moving and nonmoving living beings, and the Supreme Soul of all — takes birth to protect the principles of religion and to relieve His saintly devotees from the reactions of material work.
SB 12.2.18: Lord Kalki will appear in the home of the most eminent brāhmaṇa of Śambhala village, the great soul Viṣṇuyaśā.
....
SB 12.2.34: After the one thousand celestial years of Kali-yuga, the Satya-yuga will manifest again. At that time the minds of all men will become self-effulgent.
SB 12.2.35: Thus I have described the royal dynasty of Manu, as it is known on this earth. One can similarly study the history of the vaiśyas, śūdras and brāhmaṇas living in the various ages.
SB 12.2.36: These personalities, who were great souls, are now known only by their names. They exist only in accounts from the past, and only their fame remains on the earth.
SB 12.2.37: Devāpi, the brother of Mahārāja Śāntanu, and Maru, the descendant of Ikṣvāku, both possess great mystic strength and are living even now in the village of Kalāpa.
SB 12.2.38: At the end of the age of Kali, these two kings, having received instruction directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, will return to human society and reestablish the eternal religion of man, characterized by the divisions of varṇa and āśrama, just as it was before.
SB 12.2.39: The cycle of four ages — Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara and Kali — continues perpetually among living beings on this earth, repeating the same general sequence of events.
..............
......
Jai Shri KRSNa
Last edited by smaranam; 02 April 2010 at 09:03 PM.
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
~*~*~*~*~
Namaste
Even if someone disproves the Vedas or says Krshna was just a person from Dwapar Yuga who ate butter and ruled Dwaraka, He will always remain the Lord of my heart, my Guru and BhagavAn.
Actually atheists are not so bad, they are following at least a part of Krshna's message and glorifying Him indirectly by their goodness, provided they are good people.
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
New Member
Dear sister NayaSurya, Greetings!
I did not respond to you earlier not because I did not want to, but because I was trying to understand what you were saying. What you say is different; it is not the usual assertions and dogma that passes for debate here.
First of all, we all are mongrels, the highest of Brahmins to the lowest of Dalits. HareKrishna rightly pointed out, citing genetic studies, the level of DNA admixture among Dalits is not any different from that of the thoroughbred of Brahmins. Even the study that found a larger proportion of similarity between fathers of upper-caste and Muslims(!) on the one hand, and the Eurasian population on the other, found no significant difference on the mother’s side (Y-chromosome) for all Indians. If you go back even further, say about 60,000 years, we all came from Africa. All this shows us the Varna system is a man made concept with the only objective of enforcing order. Talking about interpolations, Srimat BG itself is considered an interpolation and Srimat Bhagavatham no earlier than about 1200 years from the present.
Religion promises many a Brooklyn Bridge after we are dead and no more and in exchange we are to give a lot in this present life, the only life we can be sure of. The powerful get to decide who is a Brahmana and who is a Shudra or a Dalit. The definitions change according to circumstance. In theory, Brahamana is one who is above all mundane things, committed to truth,free of desire and passion, and so on. If this is actually practiced, there would be zero Brahmins, ever.
My observations are not based just on book reading, I have seen how these exalted theories are actually practiced. I am myself a Brahmin by birth and have been closely associated with the religious Matam that my family belongs to. I have seen the practices first hand. If all of what I saw is just avidya, it is a very convenient sort of avidya, much like the avidya of Marie Antoinette who wanted the hungry peasants to eat cake. It is all avidya you see, just suffer through the indignation, and if you follow all the rules we have put together for you, may be, just may be, in the next life you will be alright.
All this is well and good, if it is done with informed consent. That is the key, informed consent. How can you get informed consent from a group of people for whom the core texts are forbidden, not even to be heard, or else molten lead will be poured into the ears, so says smrithi and acharyas?
What freedom is, is best known only to those from whom it is taken. Gone are the days when the Shudra and Dalit had to take all of this meekly. Dalits have been freed by the Constitution of India, written under the guidance of Dr. Ambedkar. You must read his essay on Annihilation of Caste, it reminds me of Dr. MLK’s Vietnam speech, very powerful and poignant. Ambedkar did not sow any seeds of division, the Varna system did that. Ambedkar awakened the inner dignity of all. This upsets the existing order, so he gets accused of sowing division. Yes, he is guilty of sowing division between a master and a slave. He is guilty of sowing division between the oppressor and the oppressed. He is guilty of sowing seeds of division between hypocrisy and decency.
The resurgent Dalits are despised by all the upper caste, from the southern most tip of Tamil Nadu to the heights of Himalayas in Badrinath, from Assam to Gujarat. But they are coming, armed with moral authority and intellectual rigor. They are young bards like Meena Kandasamy, novelists like Bama, politicians like Ravi Kumar, social reformers like Krishnammal Jagannathan, or “just” loving mothers like you my friend.
peace and love to all who can climb down from high horses, cheers!
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