Himalayan Academy

[satay]

namaste Arjun,

From your posts it is evident that you don't know anything about "arranged marriages" and have some convoluted opinions about it based on (?) I am not sure what.

I am not sure if I can be of any help to you in understanding this social norm of Indians or even if it is relevant for you to understand it to be a hindu..not sure...

I would love to continue but not sure exactly what your understanding of this issue is based on. Perhaps you can ask some questions about arrange marriage tradition that the more knowledgeable members can answer to help you understand it better.

Or why don't you start a thread by telling us what your understanding of an 'arranged marriage' is. It will help if you give us the context and background of your opinions and experiences.

I would like to say that your comparisons of this tradition to prostution are so ridiculous that I can't even stop shaking my head! However, I imagine that most non-indians have similar opinions of this tradition as yours so it's an important issue...Please open another thread and let's it discuss properly and throughly (time permitting).

[Arjuna]

namaste Arjun,

Greetings, Satay!

I would be glad having Ur explanations of the matter first. If i am mistaken i admit that freely. Since U claim my view is wrong, please give the proper account of facts.
Then we may procede if be needed.

[Arjuna]

If i am mistaken i admit that freely.

P. S. This refers to my [possibly incorrect] view of arranged marriage system nowadays. However i am totally sure that it is in any case unnecessary, since free will and love is that which is enough and complete in itself.

Love is the law, love under will.
A

[sm78]

Human love is a fact of life. But "some hormones" is Ur concept of interpreting it ...

excellent. it's not easy to pull your leg. harmones and humour aside ...

But I was refering what medha rishi says in slokas 46 to 55 of Sri Sri Chandi. Isin't love for a person, including the conjugal love between a man and a woman, sustained by cognition of sensual perceptions? I love my mother. Isin't it because I have been bought up by her since I was in her womb and we have exchanged many sensations between us? Isin't Maithun serves the same purpose in a love between a man and a woman? The human love and attachment is surely created in mind as sensory experience gets cognized into other emotions.

But "Prema" is surely a divine quality which comes from Atman Or God directly. Human love between a man and a woman is one place where it gets expressed. It also gets expressed in the love I feel for stray Dogs or love for my country.

What I'm driving at is that a man who is deeply in love with a woman doesn't necessatily mean he has greater "prema" than the unlucky chap who never found love.

Sorry for digressing.

[sm78]

Greetings,



If the only point is mutual compatibility of partners as U say, what is to be arranged there? What is the difference between free choice and such marriage U describe? And what is the need to "arrange" anything for compatibility to take place?

U seem to be talking of some theoretical ideal which never took place actually. I have many Indian friends and know pretty well what this "wonderful" system is worth of. In normal case of love marriage there are equal probabilities for total and true commitment to each other, same chance for families to share. The difference is that when marriage is free decision of partners, it is a responsible and indeed human act. But while decided by third party, marriage becomes forced and hypocrite game.



This is a popular misconception .

Animal do not fall in love, neither they are able to enjoy as humans do. Animals have sexual instinct aimed at procreation solely. That is why "sex for procreation only" is indeed animalistic view. Sex for pleasure is human level. Sex as an expression of love is Divine.



I do not see how this can minimize sexual promiscuity in any way. I see how this system may encourage homosexualism, which it indeed does. Both in India and muslim countries.
The more restrictions society puts upon sexual sphere, the more perversions and agression develop.



Compatibility of partners necessarily implies sexual compatibility as well. Without certain degree of intimacy one cannot be sure that some person suits him/her. Sexual relationships must come first and then only marriage — when both partners are really sure about their decision.

I in no way promote promiscuity of any kind. But love has to be free from any social considerations. Sex should happen only when love is there, and same true with marriage. When love is lacking, neither sexual relationships nor marriage do any good.

I agree with u to some extent. But I'm not intellegent enough to guess which system makes more sense for society as a whole. Rules are meant for the society in general. The more spiritually evolved can live by his own will (svecchachara) and cause no disruption. I'm not sure of your blanket idsapproval of arranged marriage. The other option too must have many pitfalls for society.

[Arjuna]

I agree with u to some extent. But I'm not intellegent enough to guess which system makes more sense for society as a whole. Rules are meant for the society in general. The more spiritually evolved can live by his own will (svecchachara) and cause no disruption. I'm not sure of your blanket idsapproval of arranged marriage. The other option too must have many pitfalls for society.

There is no ideal social system, since human being is not the ideal one .

But in any case reasonable freedom is preferable to tyranny and repression, be it of social or religious kind. The worst case we can see in example of some muslim countries, where this came to a point of physical danger.

Moreover, i see the even of marriage similar to accepting a Guru. This is sacred and personal matter in which no one else apart from 2 persons involved can get.

[Arjuna]

Greetings,

excellent. it's not easy to pull your leg. harmones and humour aside ...
But I was refering what medha rishi says in slokas 46 to 55 of Sri Sri Chandi. Isin't love for a person, including the conjugal love between a man and a woman, sustained by cognition of sensual perceptions? I love my mother. Isin't it because I have been bought up by her since I was in her womb and we have exchanged many sensations between us? Isin't Maithun serves the same purpose in a love between a man and a woman? The human love and attachment is surely created in mind as sensory experience gets cognized into other emotions.

Of course perception takes place as in every act. In the context of subject and object duality perception is inevitable thing. This is not only in the case of conjugal love, but in the case of bhakti and even mystical jnana. When one perceives, it means there is some kind of duality.

But this doesn't mean this is necessarily something low. All perception is but Consciousness alone. When any cognitive act is viewed as Spanda (pulsation of Consciousness, Atman), it is called Liberation. Thus conjugal love in no way contradicts the highest Realisation, but provides a very good chance for it. As does any strong and total feeling.

But "Prema" is surely a divine quality which comes from Atman Or God directly. Human love between a man and a woman is one place where it gets expressed. It also gets expressed in the love I feel for stray Dogs or love for my country.

Prema "comes from" Atman or God, verily. But its expressions on level of relativity aren't equal. Love for beloved woman/man and for Guru is not same as love to a pet or a fellow in univercity. It is supposed that the whole emanation [of Consciousness] be embraced by love & ecstacy (condition termed in Shaivism as lokAnanda), but there are still gradation of love.
Love between man and woman is the highest expression of Prema, though of course not the only one. When they come to realise their true identities of Shiva & Shakti, their union itself is Paramapada.

What I'm driving at is that a man who is deeply in love with a woman doesn't necessatily mean he has greater "prema" than the unlucky chap who never found love.

The one truely in love with a woman verily is in great Prema. This is not "achievement", but exceptional Grace of God (shakti-nipAta)

[sm78]

Greetings to u ...

But this doesn't mean this is necessarily something low. All perception is but Consciousness alone. When any cognitive act is viewed as Spanda (pulsation of Consciousness, Atman), it is called Liberation. Thus conjugal love in no way contradicts the highest Realisation, but provides a very good chance for it. As does any strong and total feeling.

Yes, but must be aware of these congitive acts are being created, sustained and the destroyed ~ just like any other spanda.

It is true that any total feeling through samadhi can take us to the level of spandas...thus freeing us from seeing things as mere external manifestations, giving liberation, taking away the need to be born.

The one truely in love with a woman verily is in great Prema. This is not "achievement", but exceptional Grace of God (shakti-nipAta)

True.

But I also think that the path of the urdha-reta is as much a blessing and grace to those who are capable to follow it. It is sustained on peace another quality that comes directly from God. But is seems to quite beyond capabilty of ordinary mortals of this age. Pure Peace visits us perhaves only in the deepest sleep, a thing we don't remember and perhaves in some rare fleeting moments when the mind is suddenly free.

[Sudarshan]

Sri Subramunia Swami mights have held this kind of opinion, but so what? If one is saint or Siddha it doesn't mean that every his opinion is the ultimate truth. In any case i think that in such matter as marriage one has to rely only on his own will. And not on whatever opinions of scriptures or masters.

I see arranged marriage as utmostly irresponsible thing. It may be easy to live in such a way like an animal, when every decision is taken by others - including choice of a life-partner. But is this what human life is meant for? Indeed, it is better to live as sannyasi than to stay with woman/man whom U love not. Arranged marriage is in 90% of cases a hypocricy and lie. This can result in no good either in spiritual sense or in sense of bringing up kids in a proper manner. It may happen that in insignificant minority of cases arranged marriage turns into true love relatonships. But very irresponsible to rely on such possibility...

It is always needed to separate social norms of some society which got mixed into scriptures from religion per se. Arranged marriage is an ugly custom of male-dominated societies. It has to be totally stopped.

On what basis do people "love" and marry? Love marriage usually springs out of "love at first sight" which could best be called as infatuation. Still I agree that there are genuine love marriages resulting from long years of companionship. USA has a 50% divorce rate, so much for the sanctity of love marriages. Freedom to change partners like clothes is love marriage? - that should be spiritually very useful. What does a person do when he is rejected? He goes behind another...true love indeed. One of my friend's grandma who was on a trip to the US was asked if she did not find living with same person for 50 years boring. The lady who asked this question "loved" and married thrice just for a change. I could not help laughing my heads off when I heard this.

Arranged marriages can be misused like any other thing. But they serve many advantages. They rarely end in divorce. Even if the couple have issues, the entire family will cooperate to resolve it. You obviously do not know much of Hindu families and how much love and affection there is in many families - all arranged ones. There is great security and peace in arranged marriages if used properly. If you do not get what you dream of, be happy with what you get - this is a valuable spiritual instruction. Learning to adjust to live with people who did not meet your expectations is a tapasya. This happens in love marriages too as the divorce rates indicate.

[satay]

Admin Note:
namaste,
As suggested earlier, please open a new thread to discuss 'Arranged Marriages'. The messages being posted on this thread have nothing to do with the OP.

Thanks,